So The Snipers Received A Nerf...


(LiNkzr) #21

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;526100]I don’t feel that the nerf would be all that great. I spent a lot of time going over some videos of sniping pre and post patch. According to my sniper footage (that may not be representative of all styles), the nerf would not effect around 80% of shots made. The other 20% would be more up in the air to whether they would have been hits or not due to how quick the quick scope was and how high a jump snipe was.

I am not saying I agree with any sniper nerf, yet I am not saying I disagree either…

I am simply saying, its going to happen regardless so if I was to choose, I would rather be forced to try something different on them 20% of shots rather then have to play the whole merc slower and stuff in general.[/QUOTE]

Oh ok, I misunderstood a bit. I get what you mean now.


(PixelTwitch) #22

[QUOTE=riptide;526095]I guess we agree to disagree then. I’m not playing CS or Arma. If I was I would be able to hipfire and 1 shot them in cqc and zooming wouldn’t be random. I don’t want to play a slow playing class in a fast game, while also having the most ****ing handicaps because some randoms cry.

Those shots you mention are only possible as an aggressive sniper, which is the most useful sniper. It’s also the most fun and demanding. Slowing it down is flat out removing fun.

edit I actually do like the idea of nerfing the jumping height while ADS for ALL mercs though, not just sniping classes.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I do like the idea of massively reducing the hip fire spread with a sniper rifle.
Have it somewhere around the point that if the enemy is within 10 feet you could semi-reliably hit them would be cool.


(INF3RN0) #23

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;526119]Actually, I do like the idea of massively reducing the hip fire spread with a sniper rifle.
Have it somewhere around the point that if the enemy is within 10 feet you could semi-reliably hit them would be cool.[/QUOTE]

Personally I’d like to see it pretty much 100% accurate when standing completely still at close range and assuming your stance c/d has transitioned fully, which could then scale upwards via cone spread.


(Hundopercent) #24

[QUOTE=Anti;526042]It was missed from the notes by mistake, we’ll be adding it in shortly.

The biggest thing we’re looking to control with the sway (and it is only sway that changed) is the amount of jump sniping.

This is a balance change that has been very much made as a test rather, than a solid direction change. We want to see what impact this change has and then come back to it. As people have said we’re looking for a way to reduce Vassili’s impact slightly but our preference is to avoid certain changes, especially the head shot gibs which we feel are pretty important for snipers to be effective against revives.[/QUOTE]

Headshot gibbing isn’t the problem. It’s the 1 shot headshot + gibbing that makes it too strong. Adding more randomness is probably at the bottom of the list of things to do to try and balance a character.


(LiNkzr) #25

there are other things that gib you and arguably easier to do. I don’t mind that we raise the Vassilis skill cap or ceiling I don’t remember which was correct, but removing that stuff makes you borderline useless. Well we might see people use auto-sniper instead then though :slight_smile:


(chickenNwaffles) #26

Ok, enough with the sniper hate circle jerk. Let’s take it back a step and chill… All points I am making are through personal experience in organized 5v5s, not pubs…

Sniping

We are all familiar with the concept; almost all games have some sort of ‘marksman’ role that rewards players for being more precise with their shooting. Sniping in most other games can be seen as pretty stale and even lame in some circumstances. Usually a sniper is a one shot body shot, the sniper is very immobile while scoped, and as a result, has to resort to camping and staying away from all danger, making the sniper sometimes useless against smart players. Sounds boring right? It’s boring to watch and play.

This is where I was pleasantly surprised when I started playing Dirty Bomb (DB). When I first picked up the game, I always thought sniping was going to be useless, because of how hard it seemed to hit all these mercs moving very erratically, because, after all, the both of the bolt action snipers take several body shots to kill and the head is a small target. After one of the better instances of the beta (with almost all of the mercs), I found myself playing Vassili religiously. I was hooked. I loved exploring new ways to innovate sniping to make it even more potent and interesting to use – I was the first one to start bunny jumping while sniping. To me, I was in my own world, where only my ability to click dots was the limit; I wasn’t inhibited by aimpunch, scope sway, or any other RNG (anti-skill) mechanic. It was a ****ing blast.

Of course I can still player all the other mercs at a high level, but Vassili was always the one that felt the most rewarding (not just because of instagibbing), and as a result, I almost never switched off of him. Almost every day, I would practice and practice, for hours on end just trying to get more consistent at headshotting, because back then, there was no skill ceiling for sniping.

Last patch took a dark turn though.

As you all know, Vassili was silently nerfed for the worse, but before we go into how he was nerfed, let’s brush up on why he was nerfed.

Wait, why was he nerfed in the first place?

I mean really, the status-quo right now for competitive 5v5 is almost always as follows:

2xFragger
2xSawbonez (aura stations are pretty terrible for attacking now)
1xUtility (Proxy, Nader, Sky, Vassili)

I tried to make Vassili not a utility and niche class. I really did. I would switch on and off from Vassili to Fragger when I stopped hitting my shots, but at times, it was just too difficult to keep up with the k121 and frag grenades, as crouchspamming and aimpunch still exist. Vassili doesn’t even offer any, if at all, utility to the team. He is a pure fragging role. Spotting can only do so much, but the maps, as they are now, have very few attack routes to cover, so the heartbeat is only useful for knowing when an enemy is going to peek. The heartbeat is by no means a game-changing ability.

So right now, you see almost no snipers on both teams, and if you do, their performance is not up to par to any other frag heavy class. The only real reason to pick Vassili, is because he instagibs on a headshot. If you get rid of that attribute, you will literally make him the most deadweight class in a game. Why the **** do you want 100 hp, a sniper rifle on cqc maps, and a ****ty ability when you can just go 150 hp fragger with the k121 and nades? Nades have a pretty low skill cap anyways, and even they instagib (whole teams) for christ’s sake.

So who here can really justify nerfing Vassili? I can bet money that you guys have never sniped Vs. Hubris, v586, zfz, f8, ect… like I have now you? Even at my tip top performance in scrims I have never been able to fully achieve the impact that I am expecting. It’s just not worth it to snipe. This is
coming from a guy who ONLY snipes!

I’ve said this a hundred times before: any nerf to Vassili will make him useless in a competitive 5v5 settings, as he is a risky pick that requires a high level of effort and luck to be useful.

In the end, it becomes not worth it to take a sniper over say, a 2nd fragger, or a skyhammner, and even nader now that she is in the mix. Instagibbing was the only thing that kept Vassili somewhat viable, but they didn’t even remove that, they just made his sniping too RNG dependent now.

Scope sway is probably the worst thing that SD could have ever done to balance snipers (I still stand by that they needed no balancing, we haven’t even had a ****ing tournament for god sakes, you guys really believe that the team with a sniper would have won? Of course not, most people just think it’s lame to be taken out of a battle instantly for bad game sense.

Scope sway, jump scope sway, and aimpunch all add randomness and limit the skill cap of sniping. Things like jump sniping, aggressive and mobile sniping, and bunny jump sniping are all viable and skillful mechanics that I believe add depth to the combat in the game.

As it is right now, I refuse to play Vassili anymore, it’s just too frustrating to play like a stationary turret. I loved dirty bomb, because I was gladly rewarded for having good movement and good flick aim. I played Vassili non-stop for months, and now I just don’t want to deal with all the bull****. Limiting skill is the last thing that anybody wants…

:stroggbanana: :stroggbanana: :stroggbanana: :stroggbanana: :stroggbanana:


(Ashog) #27

Just forbid scope+jump overall. Not much love lost for this anyways.


(INF3RN0) #28

I found the nerf to be pretty unnecessary overall. Linkz sums up the insta-gib part quite well- I’ve never understood the dislike for the only real skill based insta-gib in the game… I play against all the ‘better snipers’ aka the only ones who actually choose to snipe over other mercs in higher level MM/PUGs and I’ve never once found them to be OP. You need so many things to be in your favor and a strong team to really have a meaningful impact as a sniper and even then it’s hardly comparable to the plays that you can make with other mercs. Most snipers usually end up contributing less overall than if they played something else. Having scope sway for jumping might have been alright, but now the sniper just generally feels like you’re playing with mouse accel on. I don’t find it hurts my own sniping style too much, but it just makes it feel really awkward overall.

My suggestion would be to add the scope sway on the felix if anything, since body shots are very easy to land and you could bring back the OHK for auras too. Just make the MOA work similarly to the CS scout and reduce the body damage to something like 40 per hit. I’ve never seen anyone play sniper so well in a high skilled and balanced game that they made it feel too good. At best snipers have to work much harder to carry their weight, and any average/below sniper will essentially leave you a man down. I just wish the game was faster so that sniping wouldn’t even be remotely considered as too easy or too annoying to people that it warranted a nerf before the huge selection of much lower skilled weapons.


(Szakalot) #29

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;526166]I found the nerf to be pretty unnecessary overall. Linkz sums up the insta-gib part quite well- I’ve never understood the dislike for the only real skill based insta-gib in the game… I play against all the ‘better snipers’ aka the only ones who actually choose to snipe over other mercs in higher level MM/PUGs and I’ve never once found them to be OP. You need so many things to be in your favor and a strong team to really have a meaningful impact as a sniper and even then it’s hardly comparable to the plays that you can make with other mercs. Most snipers usually end up contributing less overall than if they played something else. Having scope sway for jumping might have been alright, but now the sniper just generally feels like you’re playing with mouse accel on. I don’t find it hurts my own sniping style too much, but it just makes it feel really awkward overall.

My suggestion would be to add the scope sway on the felix if anything, since body shots are very easy to land and you could bring back the OHK for auras too. Just make the MOA work similarly to the CS scout and reduce the body damage to something like 40 per hit. I’ve never seen anyone play sniper so well in a high skilled and balanced game that they made it feel too good. At best snipers have to work much harder to carry their weight, and any average/below sniper will essentially leave you a man down. I just wish the game was faster so that sniping wouldn’t even be remotely considered as too easy or too annoying to people that it warranted a nerf before the huge selection of much lower skilled weapons.[/QUOTE]

Really nice idea: Felix - high power - OHK against Aura stationary snipa
MOA - less power more mobility general purpose sniper. Still OHK headshot for anyone
Maybe 40 hit body shot is too punishing. thats auto snipa damage, 50-55?

PDP - even less power (and even more mobility): vertical recoil increase when moving. This also makes PDP nicely balanced as crouching reduces the recoil considerably. giving options on how to approach a fight


(INF3RN0) #30

[QUOTE=Szakalot;526168]Really nice idea: Felix - high power - OHK against Aura stationary snipa
MOA - less power more mobility general purpose sniper. Still OHK headshot for anyone
Maybe 40 hit body shot is too punishing. thats auto snipa damage, 50-55?

PDP - even less power (and even more mobility): vertical recoil increase when moving. This also makes PDP nicely balanced as crouching reduces the recoil considerably. giving options on how to approach a fight[/QUOTE]

PDP just has way too little recoil really. I wouldn’t mind it having the highest DPS if it actually had the recoil to make it difficult to rapid spam well and I don’t think it deserves the insta-gib for headshots, but overall I just would like to see some real variation amongst snipers.


(Szakalot) #31

high recoil when moving so you can still do it but will screw up your aim


(prophett) #32

I think that would nerf him to the point of uselessness, but if this happens it should apply to all mercs. To further that, I would love to see 0% accuracy (yes, zero) while jumping and shooting from the hip to get away from proxy’s spazzing out in confined spaces :confused:


(INF3RN0) #33

Can someone explain to me the science or math behind how jump sniping or just sniping in general is too easy/OP/uncounterable, or even remotely as annoying as actual skill-less spam weapons/abilities? I can understand the bunnyhopping for any other weapon deserving a moderate spread penalty, but for a sniper… this sounds like the same illogical QQing that I heard with the ETQW sniper from people who only had the experience of being on the receiving end. Do people not know how to move their mouse vertically or something? I can play sniper fairly decent, but I’m not going to choose to play it most of the time because there’s too much risk and situational circumstances involved for it to be reliable against equally skilled players. SD should not be taking balance tips on snipers from those dying to flat out better players and just putting blame on the sniper… it’s nonsense.


(prophett) #34

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to INF3RN0 again.


(LiNkzr) #35

Inferno I can understand jump sniping being “harder” to “counter-play” since the timing window for you to realize where the sniper is and getting gibbed is smaller so you cannot crouch spam ADAD and aimpunch him, but it’s not as easy to do as some people make it to be, it’s not hard though if you are good or have decent aiming, but in general I can see where the frustration comes from. They can’t use bull**** mechanics themselves lol.

There have been good suggestions on the thread anyways, I’m hoping to see something good on next patch :stuck_out_tongue:


(poiuasd) #36

I honestly think snipers were fine before this patch and that the nerf was put in just to shut up the keyboard warriors who play like bots and get destroyed by any semi-decent sniper because they have no idea how to play against Vassili.


(izraill) #37

SD shouldn’t be taking balance tips from anyone at this point, period. Not when a majority of the community only looks at classes through pub lenses, because that is all there is to do right now. Most people that think sniping is easy/OP most likely do so because they can dominate pubs filled with people that might as well be playing with xbox controllers. Most do not realize pubs and 5v5 do not play the same whatsoever. You can easily top frag by a mile as an aura in pubs, but auras going negative, especially against good fraggers, is commonplace in 5v5.

SD will never get solid feedback on balance unless and until tournaments are played and MM is populated so people can play against similarly skilled people.


(Ashog) #38

The tournaments have been played before and feedback provided, but SD wasn’t interested at that time.


(Ashog) #39

The tournaments have been played before and feedback provided, but SD wasn’t interested at that time. What makes you sure that they will be now?


(izraill) #40

They said on a dev stream recently they will look at future tournaments/comp play for balancing. I’m not sure why you wouldn’t for balancing. It’d be a hell of a lot more reliable information than people opinions from random ass pubs.