'Skill' in Brink

(V1cK_dB) #221

[QUOTE=RabidAnubis;372747]But, he is good at the game which is true. He also gives off good ideas for the gameplay. Let me rephrase what I said, He is good at playing the game and accepting ideas about the gameplay, but he is a little stuck on his opinions about how Brink is.

It is NO WHERE near perfect. It’s just that I can’t play any other game because of the parkour. Labs has some awesome areas for it that a LOT of people don’t know about, and they don’t seem ‘canned’ like in container city.[/QUOTE]

That’s NOT true. I’m willing to play him 1 v 1 and record it for all to see. Just read what he writes and you can tell he isn’t good (I’ve also watched him play). He says things like if you have a lot of playtime you will be good. Only a bad player would say that. I play this game a LOT less than him and I would still destroy him in a 1 v 1. In the old RTCW community on XBOX 1 there used to be a player who had over 3000 hours logged in. He was as famous for being bad at the game as he was for his insane amount of hours. He was a joke. Wolfnemesis reminds me of him. I don’t think Wolfnemesis is a bad person…he just doesn’t know what he is talking about.

Oh…and a dev saying he was good proves nothing. They have to say nice things. Not only that…just because that person is a dev doesn’t mean they are good. These are the same people who thought the weapon spread, no lobbies, VOIP off by default and everything runs through one button was a good idea…remember?

(V1cK_dB) #222

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;372759]Had to scroll back and use this as a perfect example. That video does show true skill, the task performed takes practice, time and dedication to give that ‘wow factor’ that the average biker could never display… all of those combined show true skill. 99% of people that use a bike could never perform the tricks that Danny does, because it requires a high skill level. There is nothing in Brink that can’t be done by 99% of the players, that means there’s very little skill required… I’d love to be proven wrong and someone show me a trick, kill spree or other that simply can’t be matched.

Here’s mine from W:ET… anyone care to do that jump themselves? It’s a simple ramp, so should be easy… right?[/QUOTE]

I hate you for making me watch W:ET gameplay lol. Man I miss that game.

(RabidAnubis) #223

Yeah.

The game isn’t 3D enough. It sort of ruins SMART. As I said, the new maps are better for that though.

And was W:ET like in uber low gravity? But now I see what you mean. If you had missed that spot only slightly, you would have missed it. But all it was was the WASD and a space bar. That’s not over complication. That’s a good display of what I meant by skill. But I sort of think that we are looking at different types of it in some ways. Your looking a little more at the skill on the individual scale, while I’m thinking about team co-ordination, smart planning, and the ability to adapt. More like a game of Chess but each person plays as a piece. Would you like me to show you an example of what I mean? It will take me a while to find a ‘good video’.

(DarkangelUK) #224

[QUOTE=RabidAnubis;372755]
So, we’ve discussed how ET:QW was more skillful than Brink, but could someone please explain to me what trick jumping is? I’m sort of confused by you PC players, and I’ve looked up a few videos but I’m not a visual learner, and there didn’t seem to be many great ones either. And could you also explain to me why it took so much skill?[/QUOTE]
You need to be specific, you will never grasp the concept of tricking and the difficulty in performing it by watching videos of a game you never play. I don’t expect many videos from console games though, so unless you’ve played many PC fps games famous for their tricking scene then I don’t really expect you to grasp the concept.

(RabidAnubis) #225

Yeah.

The game isn’t 3D enough. It sort of ruins SMART. As I said, the new maps are better for that though.

And was W:ET like in uber low gravity? But now I see what you mean. If you had missed that spot only slightly, you would have missed it. But all it was was the WASD and a space bar. That’s not over complication. That’s a good display of what I meant by skill. But I sort of think that we are looking at different types of it in some ways. Your looking a little more at the skill on the individual scale, while I’m thinking about team co-ordination, smart planning, and the ability to adapt. More like a game of Chess but each person plays as a piece. Would you like me to show you an example of what I mean? It will take me a while to find a ‘good video’.

(DarkangelUK) #226

[QUOTE=RabidAnubis;372765]Yeah.

The game isn’t 3D enough. It sort of ruins SMART. As I said, the new maps are better for that though.

And was W:ET like in uber low gravity? But now I see what you mean. If you had missed that spot only slightly, you would have missed it. But all it was was the WASD and a space bar. That’s not over complication. That’s a good display of what I meant by skill. But I sort of think that we are looking at different types of it in some ways. Your looking a little more at the skill on the individual scale, while I’m thinking about team co-ordination, smart planning, and the ability to adapt. More like a game of Chess but each person plays as a piece. Would you like me to show you an example of what I mean? It will take me a while to find a ‘good video’.[/QUOTE]
You’re a little naive here, and I don’t blame you as you’re not a PC gamer. It was much more than just WASD and space bar. The platform I was on had very little room at all, that meant I could barely muster any ground acceleration. Ground acceleration is gained by using a sweeping motion forward and creating a mouse arc within a certain angle to increase UPS (Units Per Second… think of it as MPH/KPH in the gaming world) speed when you’re on the ground (did you know you run at a certain speed, and specific ground angles, key combinations and mouse degrees can increase that speed?). Once in the air, holding the strafe and forward key, combined with a specific angle of the mouse then creates air acceleration, meaning you gain more speed in the air at those specific measures. Once in the air you then have to skip off of the metal grill at a specific spot so you don’t lose UPS, and also be propelled forward… this then means you hit that tiny slope at the right speed and angle to be propelled upwards enough to make it onto the roof.

Again visuals don’t translate well to a game you’ve never played.

(Verticae) #227

Allow me to help you out here. What DarkangelUK did in that video, was indeed a combination of movement, jumping, crouching and aiming. Very simple concepts indeed. The things is, that particular jumps took me a couple of hours to get down perfectly to the point where I could actually use it during a game, but it took me weeks before I was able to start applying that properly. This is what makes a good skill-based game: The core concept is simple, but the execution by a dedicated player by far surpasses the outcome of the attempts of a new player.

Look at any high-level Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory or Enemy Territory: Quake Wars video. There you go. Fast-paced, in-depth teamwork, executed through solid communication, and topped off with incredible personal skill for some enjoyable frag highlights. Brink doesn’t even come near this.

(H0RSE) #228

Look at any high-level Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory or Enemy Territory: Quake Wars video. There you go. Fast-paced, in-depth teamwork, executed through solid communication, and topped off with incredible personal skill for some enjoyable frag highlights. Brink doesn’t even come near this.

Again, comparing the skill in Brink compared to another game…

Saying a game requires no skill to play/be good at, is not the same as saying one game requires more skill than another to be good at.

(Verticae) #229

I was comparing teamwork to teamwork. I don’t care what game it’s in, if one has more tactical depth and it shows in every single match, then yes, I’ll say it’s superior. Currently, Brink loses to pretty much every other game in the teamwork department.

(DarkangelUK) #230

[QUOTE=H0RSE;372772]Again, comparing the skill in Brink compared to another game…

Saying a game requires no skill to play/be good at, is not the same as saying one game requires more skill than another to be good at.[/QUOTE]
I completely understand what you’re saying, any comments towards this post that I believe clarifies the subject? just curious is all… no one commented either way.

(Verticae) #231

It’s alright, I just realised it’s hard to argue with someone who prefers to play against bots.

(RabidAnubis) #232

@DarkAngel

But I do understand your on individual skill. And I mis-said what I said. What I meant to say was those were only Two buttons (Jump and movement) which both are very simple. But my calculating the correct things, you’ve turned a simple concept into a very complex formula that comes out into something that is completely different. That’s a good theory, that I like to call making something simple into complexity. Which is a great formula for any game.

But I’m more of a thinker and a chess player when it comes to all games, even an FPS. I really don’t believe individual skill unless it is an RTS it should be an overly big part of the game. But we’ll agree to disagree on that. So in short, I do understand for the most part on individual skill, the game? No.

Saying I’m console gamer is a falsity. I play on both XD

I played 2142 and many strategy games on the computer. Stronghold, star craft, Warcraft 3 (NOTHING LIKE WOW), Heroes of might and magic 4 and 5, and of course Age of Empires II. Not 3. I never liked three simply because it had some hero deal. I’m going to try Homeworld next. I simply prefer the console for an FPS because I don’t like having to move my mouse several times back, lift up, and forth. I like being able to do something in one movement.

And please. Socom took a lot of skill. Just in a different way. It was tactical skill, not really skill on an individual basis. Mohican warrior, you will always be remembered. Salutes former clan leader

(DarkangelUK) #233

But you’re just simplifying something to suit your argument. It’s exactly like saying a skilled Formula 1 driver is ‘simply’ driving a car, Danny Macaskill is ‘simply’ riding a bike, Tony Hawk is ‘simply’ riding a skateboard… it’s ridiculous. You can’t reduce something to it’s simplest form then say that it’s basically the same and anyone can do it. Was Einstein ‘simply’ crunching numbers? It doesn’t matter how much you simplify the act, the end result requires a skill unmatched by the average enthusiast… and it’s the end result you should be focusing on and the skill required to achieve it, not the function used to get there.

(H0RSE) #234

I also played W:ET and RTCW in clans and leagues, and was approached to join.

I only prefer to play certain games with bots, like Quake and UT. As far as Brink goes, I don’t care either way.

(V1cK_dB) #235

[QUOTE=H0RSE;372780]I also played W:ET and RTCW in clans and leagues, and was approached to join.

I only prefer to play certain games with bots, like Quake and UT. As far as Brink goes, I don’t care either way.[/QUOTE]

How could you type that and be so serious?

(H0RSE) #236

Because I am serious?..

(Steinernein) #237

This entire thread really comes down to personal preference, arguing otherwise is just dishonesty of another brand.

I really don’t see any team-to-team tactical comparisons, what it boils down to in almost all those examples are higher skill ceilings for INDIVIDUAL skill not necessarily the aforementioned skill set. None of you have really outlined in any concrete measurable fashion that Brink lacks in comparison when it comes to teamwork - ‘measurable’ being the key word here.

Appearances are one thing and many of you may be looking through rose tinted lenses when it comes to games of yesteryear. I am not saying that Brink is superior either, but I am fairly certain you’re deliberately understating things rather than looking at games objectively and within context.

(RabidAnubis) #238

I’m agreeing with you. We’re saying the same thing in different formats. What I’m saying is a well designed game will let you have the skateboard, a simple concept, but make doing a triple back-flip bar dance (Okay. I know that doesn’t exist) should take some degree of ability, which is what Brink seemed to forget. So smart should still be the L2 button (What is it for the PC?) and X (What is it for the PC?) should be all that is there. But in order for me to do a wall jump I should have to time it PERFECTLY. Verticae is getting what I am meaning.

Allow me to help you out here. What DarkangelUK did in that video, was indeed a combination of movement, jumping, crouching and aiming. Very simple concepts indeed. The things is, that particular jumps took me a couple of hours to get down perfectly to the point where I could actually use it during a game, but it took me weeks before I was able to start applying that properly. This is what makes a good skill-based game: The core concept is simple, but the execution by a dedicated player by far surpasses the outcome of the attempts of a new player.

Sometimes I need a translator. :slight_smile: That jump is an example of individual skill at one of it’s highest points. Let me put it this way. If that had required you to type aakldfjaspaoiewasejklrauuaklsdaldaadpoanaerjklajsdflajds;ad?><><kfj to complete that jump in a canned animation it would have been ridiculous. That’s not skill, that’s just memorization.

But then does it encourage tactical skill? No. I don’t feel as if this game encourages tactics. It encourages cheap buffs. The team work feels canned almost. Why the hell can’t I send the guy up the elevator or the left stairway? Please, don’t go up the ramp with the HMG at the top. Your a founder. Not a bullet shield. Socom got this down correctly. You tell them to follow you and they do so.

It doesn’t really encourage individual skill which makes an awesome game, or tactical skill which also makes an awesome game in a different way.

Now, if we were arguing, it would be that I think if the individual skill cap is too high, the game can’t be that tactical. Because then a single player could ruin a well thought out plan by the other team. It would be sort of like giving a marine in SC2 a hundred damage because he was really good at his job. And this is the reason why I think Brink is confused. It tried to do both but failed horribly at both of them.

Now, I still love Brink, I simply think that it is confused. It got style down correctly. “It’s not cowering! It’s taking cover!”

Sincerely,

RabidAnubis

(Hot-Wire) #239

No you’re not… you’re a horse.

(DarkangelUK) #240

Ok Anubis, I get what you’re saying now :slight_smile: