Shuffling Teams in Server Browser Matches

(Begin2018) #21

@B_Montiel said:
WTF : It’s supposed to exist already ?

Teams are shuffled after the map selection, aren’t they ?
Or at least your communication for 3 years always implied it.
So this definitely needs some clarification.

No they aren’t. Shuffle occur at THE END of the match, just before you come back to the lobby page. You can open the console to see this. That’s why sometimes the match start with 3v8 players…

@Porkchopiya said:
Hiding Players Level is the Solution.
That’s the solution of nothing. Hiding levels change nothing at all, newbies stay newbies.

(Darkwolf3802) #22

@Porkchopiya said:
Hiding Players Level is the Solution. not the shuffle. Period!

Cause hiding player lvls magically makes teams balanced

(TheStrangerous) #23

@Darkwolf3802 said:

@Porkchopiya said:
Hiding Players Level is the Solution. not the shuffle. Period!

Cause hiding player lvls magically makes teams balanced

There is a psychological morale drop, whether someone likes it or not, it’s still a subconscious mood change.

(Darkwolf3802) #24

@TheStrangerous said:

@Darkwolf3802 said:

@Porkchopiya said:
Hiding Players Level is the Solution. not the shuffle. Period!

Cause hiding player lvls magically makes teams balanced

There is a psychological morale drop, whether someone likes it or not, it’s still a subconscious mood change.

And when lvls r hidden its an auto assume you have a shit team

(ThePigVomit) #25

Definitely a pre-match shuffu is good.

Keeping in match shuffu is also good, however the ability to call a shuffu should be restricted to the top half (XP wise) of each team.

Far too often are shuffle called by bottomfeeders. They also tend to call 2nd half shuffu, which IMO, should be eliminated.

(Press E) #26

@Porkchopiya said:
Hiding Players Level is the Solution. not the shuffle. Period!

I love seeing people blame visible levels on unbalanced matches. Because CMM and Ranked are always so much better, and no one ever checks hours played, lol

([ *O.C.B.* ] Wildcard) #27

@ThePigVomit said:
Definitely a pre-match shuffu is good.

Keeping in match shuffu is also good, however the ability to call a shuffu should be restricted to the top half (XP wise) of each team.

Far too often are shuffle called by bottomfeeders. They also tend to call 2nd half shuffu, which IMO, should be eliminated.

I’d agree with keeping the shuffle as long as its removed as an option during 2nd round in Stopwatch mode and increasing the cut-off time for it to match up with the restart timer for other modes; or have it force a restart by default. Let’s be honest the shuffle system is rarely used for its intended use these days and when it’s used halfway into a game past the restart cut-off time, and it passes, it just fucks everyone over; and even more so for those who didn’t get lucky with the shuffle roulette leaving a sour taste and feeling of being punished for actually trying to win. So if we’re gonna keep the in-game shuffle votes it really should just be linked to the restart and be one vote for both; there is nothing more frustrating than working your ass off on objectives only to get swapped over past the restart timer (eg. seconds before the c4 you just planted blows, right before the EV is done being escorted and you repaired it, etc.). Otherwise I’d rather see them just go as the inherent flaws of its current form just promotes toxicity with how it is being used by players.

(Szakalot) #28

its an obvious yes, beats the shuffle+restart vote mess we are forced to push for ourselves; if people want to teamup there is CMM and ranked.

Since server browser is SW focused, it doesnt matter which side you play first, as far as merc picks

(Begin2018) #29

@Szakalot : Server browser isn’t SW focused, there is Objective servers too, for example Moscow servers.

(DarkangelUK) #30

The problem isn’t the pre or the post match shuffle, the problem comes from higher levels switching to the other team to be with other higher levels to stack the teams. Team stacking is the biggest issue in server browser games at the moment, and we’re talking level 100+ switching to be with other triple digit levels. I’ve seen the team numbers be even, and a high level move themselves to spec until someone joins then they join the already stacked side .

Until you stop that, when you shuffle means nothing because players will just switch mid-game to the other team. Hide levels, will do wonders

(k3endo) #31

@DarkangelUK Maybe the solution would be then to get rid of team swapping all together. As a level 100+ that gets put against teams of competent people yet put alongside people with less than 50hrs (in the same game i might add) the spot on the other team looks really, really appetizing. And it takes a lot to suck it up, fight without a decent medic and engineer, and suck up the loss while hoping that someone on your team leaves and is replaced by a player that can hold their own.

Most of the time i suck up the loss, but sometimes when my entire team composes of all less than level 10s while fighting against a team of 50’s and 60’s, i just cant resist (nowadays i just leave the server and try to find a balanced match or, god forbid, use the casual matchmaking server that is just as imbalanced).

Along with getting rid of team swapping, maybe create servers that have min as well as max levels, for example have max level 5, max level 10, max level 20, min 21 max 40, min 41 max 60, min 61 max 100. At last it will create some semblance of a team fight, not just a few gods on each team fighting alongside a bunch minions who don’t know repair stacking doesn’t work.

EDIT: And i voted for the wrong option, id rather pre match shuffle not post

(rosskii) #32

Well, I think the timing of the current autoshuffle is fine, what would be better is you make it easier to call a vote early on. So e.g. consider the team with all the experienced players would probably vote no, and the noob team would vote yes. So maybe give vote priority to the less experienced side and force through any early votes. I feel voting in the first minute is much more fair than voting 1/3 of the way through a match.

Also you need server tiers. Games that allow high skilled and low skilled players to mix do not grow and eventually die of inactivity.

(henki000) #33

My solution would be dynamic server browser. Sync servers and gather same skillset people together. If people are playing with friends/team, they should stay in same server and try to get them on same side. Steal some pro players from other servers and ditch the random in next server after unbalanced match. If game is balanced, there is no need for this to happen.

Hide levels/names or fake them to test morale boost. Do this for scientific purpose. I believe there is tremendous impact. Create fake nemesis people that appear haunting them, so they have personal reasons to fight their best. This is called player engagement.

But why I chose “Post-Match Shuffle: Allowing you to create a team composition, but with poorer match balance”

Team composition is important, especially when playing with friends. People can still fake their skills playing intentionally bad or simply just trying something new. Actual problem is that there is no borders on serious/casual gaming. Not enough good stuff to motivate people playing their best sides. Especially if you have everything you want (pointing at you high levels, its your fault)

When playing casual, it should not matter who wins anyway. People are just having fun together in nice game where everyone is smiling doing some trickjumping or knife battles. Living happily ever after.

When playing serious, team composition and merc choices become important. It should not matter who wins anyway, because this is competition now. Only best teams/players wins, there is no balance for that. Sure you can play sometimes easier players, but hard players are going to play hard. They are going to use their own voice-chat. Keep selecting best merc combo synergy. Reporting enemy movement. Planning tactics. You cant beat that alone, unless you learn from them and possibly learn faster.

So we get to point what is actually important and what is balance.

Is balance that you get 50/50 win/lose ratio? I dont think so. It does not encourage you to play your best, since you will anyway win 50%.

Balance should be more like 90/10 win/lose ratio for best player. Now balance in Dirty Bomb feels like 60/40 ratio, thus not giving enough encourage for playing your best.

(Xenithos) #34

@DarkangelUK said:
The problem isn’t the pre or the post match shuffle, the problem comes from higher levels switching to the other team to be with other higher levels to stack the teams. Team stacking is the biggest issue in server browser games at the moment, and we’re talking level 100+ switching to be with other triple digit levels.

3 things: 1st, I’ve seen what you’re saying and can agree to a point. I’ve also seen the opposite, where high levels try to shuffle, and also try to move themselves to rebalance. I myself will switch sometimes dropping my care of what the balance is like to play with my closest friends who aren’t very good. My friends that are good 99% of the time don’t care what team I’m on or they’re on.

2nd, The BIGGEST problem is ACTUALLY merc stacking. When a team can have 3 stokers or 2 guardians or 3 arties you know what I’m on about. Crap, TWO auras alone can be a big pain in the butt if no one’s playing Phantom. This problem is then magnified by skill IN those stacks, as higher level players are usually the one’s who will knowingly do this because of how effective it is. You literally cannot blow up the last objective on Castle if the defending team has 3 stokers.

3rd, shuffling teams before the match makes a lot of sense also in the fact that many players leave after the end of a match BASED ON HOW THE MATCH’S BALANCE ALREADY WAS.

(Koncentrator) #35

I truly believe the only way to counter the current “unbalanced” gameplay is by separating the servers into skill tiers, or at least level ranges. Because as @k3endo stated, most matches just devolve into the top players of each side slaughtering the rest of the team senselessly.
Of course the problem is how you’d split these players apart and if there were enough good and bad players to fill those servers.

(Press E) #36

@DarkangelUK said:
The problem isn’t the pre or the post match shuffle, the problem comes from higher levels switching to the other team to be with other higher levels to stack the teams. Team stacking is the biggest issue in server browser games at the moment, and we’re talking level 100+ switching to be with other triple digit levels. I’ve seen the team numbers be even, and a high level move themselves to spec until someone joins then they join the already stacked side .

Until you stop that, when you shuffle means nothing because players will just switch mid-game to the other team. Hide levels, will do wonders

I’ve barely ever seen anyone switch levels to be with a high level player. And when it does happen, it’s typically other low level players trying to move onto a team with a “skilled” player. This coming from a level 120 something player myself.

Besides, hiding levels wouldn’t really accomplish anything, even if people didn’t just check hours played like they do in ranked or CMM. The thing is, DB has such a small playerbase that it gets pretty easy to recognize anyone above level 30 if you play often enough just from their name. And even then, what’s stopping anyone from just switching onto a team with a good player? You don’t need to see levels to see when someone is doing well, lol

Team switching happens so rarely that I’d almost consider it a non-issue, since most of the time I see it used to balance out teams rather than stack them. And even if it was that much of an issue, hiding levels wouldn’t do anything to stop it.
Just look at how balanced CMM and ranked are, places where levels and team switching have been disabled.

(rosskii) #37

@Koncentrator said:
I truly believe the only way to counter the current “unbalanced” gameplay is by separating the servers into skill tiers, or at least level ranges. Because as @k3endo stated, most matches just devolve into the top players of each side slaughtering the rest of the team senselessly.
Of course the problem is how you’d split these players apart and if there were enough good and bad players to fill those servers.

well I recently discussed this in another thread and did come up with an idea of how “tier servers” could work. Here is the idea.

  • You have 1 type of server globally (instead of separating them as minimum level 10, 20 etc).
  • The server could have a colored icon and/or colored text to identify the current server skill level as either bronze, silver, gold or cobalt.
  • The server could calculate a (hidden) ELO rating of each player and work out the average of all players on the server, then dynamically change the server skill level (e.g. at map change), depending on the average ELO at that time. So… if the average ELO goes up enough, change the icon and color from e.g. gold to blue (cobalt).
  • Restrict players to playing within their skill range (up one or down one). e.g. Allow a gold player to join a cobalt and silver server, but block a silver player from joining cobalt?
  • For servers with under 5 people make the server skill level unranked, which would be ideal for people wanting to play with their friends (even if they had different skill rating).
  • Make the current skill level of a server visible in the match scores overlay, so players can check what server type they are currently playing in. So if they see the skill level dropped to Gold they could quit to find better competition else where, vice versa a low skilled player can see its too hard and find a less intense server.
  • There are different ways to calculate ELO. Not sure if its being done already on db. But its not going to work if you score ELO by team vs team. It would work better doing it player vs player. To do that, you could match the players from each scoreboard position. So, e.g the top scorer of the losing team would lose points only from the top scorer of the winning team. Same for 2nd place calculated elo against the other 2nd place position on the other team and so on.
(HavokMKD) #38

My solution is simple, I’ve said it many times before, just add Low Level servers, Medium Level Servers and High Level servers and No Level Servers for the ones who want to challenge themselves. It cannot be more simple.
I don’t get this Pre-and-Post match shuffle, like the shuffle CHANGED things as it is now.

(k3endo) #39

To be perfectly honest, while we all want the server browser to be balanced, what needs to happen is that the low levels servers to be able to play in their own, cornered off environment so they can fundamentally understand how the game is.

I think the difference between casual matchmaking, server browser and ranked should be cemented as different core systems. Personally, i hate the casual system rn, and would much prefer insurgency’s ‘create a party then join a server of your choice’ over the 6v6 semi-not casual ranked mishmash we have right now.

Assuming CMM does do anywhere (it took a long time for its implementation anyway) the

  1. CMM for the newer players, being put in less chaotic 6v6 controlled environments with ONLY other people of the same level, no people my level being shoehorned in just because the other team also has someone as good as me. These will be the place for slower but guaranteed ‘tiered’ matches, with only people of the rough same skill level being put in them.

  2. Server browser is ranked-lite. The games are a practice for the stop watch game mode, with the browser remaining as a way for big groups of friends to join the same match on enemy teams without having to queue as two separate parties (and then getting put in the same game anyway). CMM should still yield better balanced games in theory, but i still prefer choosing a server you know?

  3. Ranked remains ranked, using the ranked system and not anyhidden elo system. Restrict this from lower levels, as from anecdotal evidence from lower rank friends i gather that some join ranked games with less than 50hrs in game, cant aim for shit and end up repair stacking the ev the entire game. I doubt lower levels whom have no idea how to play the game, then join ranked just to get dominated by a merc they dont know wearing a shiny blue card will continue to play the game, believing that the guy they played WAS the same skill level, but he pay2win-ed the fight.

Its a bit of an awkward situation tbh. I am level 101 at gold 5, but i have friends which are around level 20 and at low silver. Playing together in cmm only ends up with the matchmaking system breaking and putting a mixed bag of enemies on the other team, something we can easily sweep up both being fairly above average players respective to our average peers, but when it comes to ranked the system massively over compensates and puts us against a team of cobalts 2’s 3’s and elites, something even myself on my best days could never hope to achieve, yet alone my friends having to suffer through gun-fights with a guy with an level probably 10 times their own.

I think, only further continuing the match balance argument, there needs to be implementation of separate ecosystems for each tier of player to enter and advance through, and for lower levels to not necessarily meet higher levels in a place other than the server browsers, which should remain as the fairly unbalanced region of the game. If CMM was better than it was, people like me would be flocking back to the server browser and the problem might not exist in the first place. I want a fun and balanced match, and being able to identify on a personal level who in a server is good, who isnt helps a lot in trying to craft a balanced game, even if it just involves asking a guy on the other team to go join my team once i go spectator and then awkwardly shimmy over to the other team.

(k3endo) #40

Sorry for spamming, but just to add to this:

The pre-post match shuffling argument wouldn’t need to exist if there wasnt an arbitrarily small squad limit. Come on, at least make it 5 or six. Three is nonsensically small and really dogmatic to play with. A bigger squad would mean no more need to create a team comp than currently exists, and solves the problem by allowing players more than a single merc of each category.

(again, i emphasis how i voted for the wrong system, i would rather have pre match shuffling)