Show Nader Some Loving?


(PixelTwitch) #1

This is likely going to be one of them post that splits the community right down the middle. Already we have people concerned about the amount of spam in the game and others hating that she has martyrdom as an ability. Let me be completely upfront about what you can expect in this post… Yes, I am going to be suggesting she is made stronger and also switch her role from the assault classification to an assault + field ops hybrid. So, let’s not waste any more time and get right on with it…

HEALTH
Currently Nader has 100hp by default, this puts her at the same health as a Vasseli and only 10hp higher than a Proxy. When compared to her utility, speed and optimal combat range, this simply feels odd. I believe she should receive 10hp more bringing her up to 110hp by default and be restricted (if she is not already) from the “Try Hard” augment.

Based on the damage numbers provided to the people over at the wiki, this should increase her survivability by 1 shot on a bunch of weapons. This is important because currently Nader dies in the exact same number of shots as Proxy when using a lot of the most popular weapons at close range.

SPEED
Nothing too drastic here… I feel that Nader should lose a tiny bit more speed while carrying her launcher to slightly negate boosting nades with long jumps and offsetting that extra survivability while using her ability.

NADE HITBOX & DIRECT HIT
The Nades hitbox should be reduced in size to better represent its real size. On the surface this may seem like a Nerf but it would actually make shooting Nades much more reliable without them hitting bits of geometry or team mates. Where this would be a Nerf is shooting in the open or up close, To balance this out I would slightly increase the Direct Hit damage (none explosive) by 10hp bringing its total to 25hp on a direct hit when there is no explosion (Due to range). Keep as is at range.

NUMBER OF NADES + COOLDOWN
So far, we have mainly been talking about small tweaks, now we get onto the good stuff. Nader can now stack a maximum of 4 nades compared to 6 pre Steam beta and 5 at the Steam Beta launch. This combined with relatively low cooldown is resulting in almost always having access to a nade or two but always feeling like you lack the required amount. 4 does not feel like enough of a stack to help clear out entrenched areas due to the low damage and small radius. I feel slightly increasing the cooldown time by around 15%-20% but increasing the max nade stack to 6 would be a smart move. While this would slightly increase “spam” I believe this is a problem caused by 3-4 Naders on a team and not the number of nades available in a stack. Maybe even looking towards having a nade fired pausing the cooldown by X amount of time would also encourage more stacking nades?

MARTYRDOM
Now, I totally understand why this ability can be such a perceived problem and what I am about to suggest is more of a change in the function rather then a buff or nerf. Currently, triggering the explosion is a very quick process that can be cancelled by gibbing the Nader. This is making the ability almost useless in close range and as people are getting better at gibbing, its not all that effective after fighting at medium range either. Currently this is an ability that feels like its effectiveness is either entirely on the Nader in some situations or the enemies mistake in others. This is not the worst thing in the world but it certainly lacks that middle ground. By doubling or even tripling the detonation time but removing the cancel on gib, the ability would have so much more utility and would make suicide strats both more and less effective. More in terms of clearing out defences and bad players but less when it comes to just being able to run into people and spam the activation. I think out of everything suggested so far this is going to be the one that divides the player base the most.

EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE
Most simple suggestion here and is partly related to the Assault - Field Ops thing I mentioned in the intro to this post. I suggest increasing damage done to OBJECTIVES (like the EV) is increased by 50% per nade.

==EDIT: AFTER PLAYING SOME MORE IT SEEMS MY ISSUE IS NOT EXACTLY WITH THE DAMAGE BUT THE ARMING TIME WHEN HITTING THE EV AND HAVING IT BOUNCE BACK OFF. MAYBE KEEPING THE DAMAGE THE SAME OR EVEN SLIGHTLY REDUCING THE DAMAGE BUT REMOVING THE ARM TIME WHEN HITTING THE EV WOULD BE A BETTER SOLUTION==

I NEED AMMO!!!
Again, this is linked to the Assault - Field Ops thing. To be blunt, Nader is not and is not likely to ever be as useful as Fragger due to her weapon (SMG vs LMG) and primary ability. This makes her a very hard pick for competitive and really more of a “let’s have some fun” pick for public (even with ALL the suggestions I have made so far). So should she be a Field Ops? Again, I don’t think her current style fits into that role all that well either when it comes to weapon damage output, health and explosive damage onto objectives. However, I do feel she is perfect for that middle ground here. I feel that she should be given SMALL ammo packs (1 clips per pack, 15xp direct hit + extra clip). This allows her to be a bullet hose while waiting for her nades to recharge and be of some use to the team.

The real reason I think this works out is during competitive/drafting. Currently you would take 2 Assaults, 2 Medics and 1 “Required” Merc. If this is an engineer, there is a good chance you would roll with no ammo and if its a EV map on defence you would want to roll with maybe 2 Field Ops meaning less assault brunt. Nader could bridge that gap between Field Ops and Assault picks by offering slightly more utility to the team overall. This could help the game slightly break away from the current meta and in drafting allow for multiple bases to be covered as a bare minimum with a single Merc. Honestly, its really hard to explain all the situations that I have floating around in my head but it just seems to make sense. Too the point, I am struggling to find a single reason why she should not have this ability currently. Baring in mind Phoenix already has 3 abilities.

Well there you go :slight_smile:


(chickenNwaffles) #2

Nailed it pixel. Every change sounds perfect.


(PixelTwitch) #3

Not sure if serious or… trolling… lol


(Zenity) #4

What you describe to me sounds like she would become a full blown Fire Support class, even if you call it a hybrid. That would be one way to go about it I guess, although I kind of doubt that such an extreme change in her makeup is going to happen. I’d also start wondering why we even have “Assault” as a class, when Fragger seems to be the be-all and end-all of it anyway…

I generally like the idea of a fast SMG Assault with a utility grenade launcher, but right now both of those functions lack punch. This seems contrary to Fragger, where both his primary fighting capability and his special ability are extremely powerful on their own. Hopefully they’ll be brought a bit closer together still.

Also, it’s kind of a shame that the dedicated grenade launcher assault merc isn’t even remotely as much a threat as the rifle engineer in ET was. A lot of people disliked the guy, but he brought something unique to the game and due to the super slow firing rate of the “grenade launcher”, it took a lot of skill to master its effectiveness.


(ToonBE) #5

I would not give here 3 abilities because that would be inconsistent with the other mercs. However I agree she has little value in competitive play, because 1 nade of fragger would be even more effective at area denial then naders launcher ability and she is kind of weak.

I think it would be nice to make here into a field-opp class. Give her 120hp, remove martyrdome and give her ability to provide ammo. She could be the perfect alternative for skyhammer/arty on maps without an EV (like dome or train).

SO: 120hp, Ammo packs, granade launcher => awesome new field-opp for non-EV maps.


(PixelTwitch) #6

Actually I am going to edit the main post about the damage to the EV, I was having trouble doing damage last time I played but that was due to my range from the EV and the minimum arm time before it explodes on contact so I was having to place them next to it and doing barely nothing. I would now just say have it always explode on contact with the EV rather then increasing the damage, you could infact reduce each nade by around 10 - 20% if they allow 6 stacks.

I am certainly not after making her as useful as a fire support that can now fully restock ammo from empty in a single pack and almost demolish the EV in a single blow (well you can if you play Skyhammer obviously). It would literally be to the point that she could do like a third of the EVs health with a stack of 6 nades and restore 1 or 2 clips of ammo with a maximum 4 stack of packs.

Sure you could call her Fire Support but she would be less useful as a Fire Support than any of the other Fire Support Mercs and still less effective then any Assault Mercs. However have her corner of the game where she can be valued for what she is and not what she is not :slight_smile:


(PixelTwitch) #7

[QUOTE=ToonBE;526732]I would not give here 3 abilities because that would be inconsistent with the other mercs. However I agree she has little value in competitive play, because 1 nade of fragger would be even more effective at area denial then naders launcher ability and she is kind of weak.

I think it would be nice to make here into a field-opp class. Give her 120hp, remove martyrdome and give her ability to provide ammo. She could be the perfect alternative for skyhammer/arty on maps without an EV (like dome or train).

SO: 120hp, Ammo packs, granade launcher => awesome new field-opp for non-EV maps.[/QUOTE]

I would like to see the game move more away from solid class defined roles and really work with this middle ground more as there is a huge void currently. When it comes to 3 abilities we already have Phoenix who has three (Heal. Defibs and Self-Revive) and I would not be surprised to see more in future.

However I do understand where you are coming from. You seem to want a more class based shooter kinda thing (which is fine) and I am more after the “hero” based shooter.


(ToonBE) #8

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;526734]I would like to see the game move more away from solid class defined roles and really work with this middle ground more as there is a huge void currently. When it comes to 3 abilities we already have Phoenix who has three (Heal. Defibs and Self-Revive) and I would not be surprised to see more in future.

However I do understand where you are coming from. You seem to want a more class based shooter kinda thing (which is fine) and I am more after the “hero” based shooter.[/QUOTE]

I just want the game to have depth where you need to think out good play tactics. I more like the idea of world of warcraft kind off classes, if you know what I mean… For me the abilities don’t need to be “from this world”… Some special and cool animations linked to an ability where you can spawn snakes (or w/e else looks cool) around the EV or C4 area for a certain amount of time to prevent access would be cool etc… I like synergies, but there still needs to be a dominant ability (medic, assault, field-opp, scout,…) You see what I am trying to say?


(Glottis-3D) #9
  1. i do not like that nades bounce from targets. partially because everything in this game biunces in some redicilous way and partially because i do not want bouce after direct hit.
    i would like to see explosion on hit for primary Nade and time-triggered explosion for Secondary Nade(Boosting several nades included).
  2. i like the cross-class mercs. but not sure about soldier/field-ops intersection. more like soldier/engineer
    -Keep her low HP and semi-Fast
    -add boosting nades(secondary fire for nader) with time trigger - thus she can cover herself when doing OBJ
    -make her fast at doing Objectives.

(PixelTwitch) #10

The problem with her being a engineer would be that she would then basically overlap with fletcher when it comes to speed, utility and ability. Not to mention that Fletcher can also have a SMG…


(Glottis-3D) #11

i forgot about that guy completely. Thnx, SD for taking out half of mercs for so long!


(DB Genome editor) #12

If you accept a bit of techno-wizardry (and we already have quite a bit in DB), there are very little limits you have to put on abilities without even going into the realm of fantasy / magic. Remember the Brink caltrops grenades? Those could do exactly what you described while still keeping to the game’s background.

Also, regarding having 3 abilities, as long as one of these is context-sensitive (such as being only available when incapped as for Nader and Phoenix) and doesn’t introduce another hotkey, it should not be an issue at all.


(chickenNwaffles) #13

No, I’m actualyl serious lol, I’ve been playing a lot of nader recently, and I feel like she needs a slight buff.


(Szakalot) #14

I think she just needs a RoF buff to be able to deny areas with nade-spam quicker.

RoF buff helps her being effective without adding to the spam levels the way more nades/faster cooldown/ bigger AoE radius would.

Alternatively, bring up the nade-fly speed; as its pretty freaking ridiculous that fragger’s nades fly faster