Should Nexon/SD start considering requests to remove bans?

(TheDoctorHax) #1

I have heard way too many stories of innocent people getting banned for absolutely no reason, and the GMs refusing to even listen to their plea. One of my friends was one such victim. He has a blackwidow keyboard and he was banned because the software for it was picked up as a cheat. The GMs refused to even listen to him. I and SO many other people use Sandboxie for legit purposes (privacy and security) and it is listed as a banned program, which I understand but then people sometimes forget to close it and/or other bannable programs that are used in a legit way, and then they are banned with no hope of repeal, some of them even put money and hours into the game.

(Faraleth) #2

Sandboxie is picked up by pretty much every anti-cheat system I know, because it’s used to running multiple instances of the same program on one system, allowing users to farm/bot from multiple accounts or play sessions at once. I know for a fact this is the case with Warden, Valve-Anti-Cheat and Punkbuster - I’m sure many others too (as well as, of course, NGS).

I also know that software (such as the Razer keyboard drivers and configuration software) is white listed by such anti-cheats and no users will face any form of action for this. I am very hesitant to believe your friend was banned due to a commercial product - the software will be “whitelisted”.

Ban appeals are no doubt looked over if disputed; the only reason a GM would refuse any further discussion on the matter is if they were certain the program the user was banned for, is against the rules. I’m not 100% certain on the technicalities of NGS, however I know other anti-cheats don’t simply ban without logging why - GM’s will have access to information like this, such as the name of the program detected and the software’s signature, function and other various records and bits of information associated with the program.

If your friend is banned for third party programs, he’s probably not telling you the truth why that is. Again, it won’t have been for the keyboard software.

PS. They already DO consider ban disputes. That’s why there is a “dispute a ban” section on the support page - they just don’t do it very often, due to pretty much every single on being guilty.

(Lumi) #3

I think that banning should be long enough for people to feel the punishment.

Situations in which there was a wrong banning of course should be up for debate and as Faraleth has said, they already are.

Now regarding people that actually cheated I think that banning should be for at least one year, preferably two. Just like ESL participants face when they’re caught cheating.

This way, only people who really want to repent and play the game properly will actually come back and play. People who just wanted the ban to quickly go away to cheat again will not even stick around that long to try again and will be already on another game and will be cheating there…

(Ardez1) #4

IMO, this poll is a no brainer. Obviously they should review bans on a case by case basis if a user wants to appeal it. ‘Depending on how it is implemented’ feels like the only correct answer in my mind. It is like saying “As long as they do it correctly then I have no problem with it.” The real problem is getting people to agree on what is “the right way to do it”. Somebody will always be unhappy with the results and hackers certainly do take on the guise of being innocent when they weren’t.

The problem with allowing ban appeals is that there is no proof either way in SOME cases. Do they unban or do they keep the ban in place? The reason there is less evidence is likely because of the programs being used can’t be tracked. Programs that HIDE the actual hacks on the users computer is what can trigger some bans. Whether or not they were using it to hide the hacks in unable to be determine and still stay within the various privacy laws enacted across the world.

So it comes down to does Nexon ban the people using those programs without a confirmation of hacking or does it blatantly and irresponsibly allow potential hackers in the game? You can guess which route they took.

Then some of those people who were banned by this proactive anti-cheat are claiming innocence. I have ZERO DOUBTS that many people have been banned who never intended to hack. They simply had a program on their computer that was blacklisted by the anti-cheat. Now, The real problem is that not all of them are innocent. The same lack of evidence of hacking exists for both the innocent and the guilty.

I am certainly glad that I won’t ever be in a position to try and make those decisions and that is likely one of the many reason why Nexon will likely not be considering ban appeals.

As a side note, most hackers have likely already created additional accounts and got into the game anyway after determining what got them caught the first time. So there is that as well.

(B_Montiel) #5

I’ll play devil’s advocate here :

I won’t pronounce myself on the OP’s friend case, but the tolerance against macro/auto-clickers software is somehow biased as long as native controller software are white-listed. So I think this is strongly abrupt to ban someone for using a similar third party program that does exactly what native ones do.

I don’t know the kicking/banning process that leads to players being unable to play. But I’d be horribly surprised to receive a permanent ban out of nowhere just because I’m using my steam account on a friend’s computer which have whatever program running. In some cases, I feel like this is almost unfair to not even have a clear warn before any definitive actions.

Unless you take the time to read the support section with black listed program, which is quite hard to find, you won’t know why you’ll get banned. And I suppose GM won’t give you direct proof during a ban appeal, due to logical hiding of the detection process.

So my question is simple, is there any levelling in the banning process ?
If not, I’d totally understand why some banned players might feel screwed.

(*Grim*) #6

Deleted

(FilterDecay) #7

If somebody went so far as to download and install some hacker software they should have their steam account banned completely.

(MarsRover) #8

I’m a programmer and a PC tinker. I totally see myself one day installing/using something like sandboxie/wireshark/whatever and getting banned.

I’m currently level 27. I’ve spent money on this game. I’m posting on this forum. Mind you - I can understand why NGS automatically bans for software that has legitimate purposes. What I want is support being reasonable and unbanning me.

(Jostabeere) #9

SD should make it more clear what people aren’t allowed to use.
Aren’t you the guy who make a thread while ago? Your friend used a program he shouldn’t be and got banned for it. I don’t see why he is innocent. And I call BS on the story a second time. GMs pretty much know who was banned for what and which program he was running when he was banned. IF it was an innocent keyboard program, GMs would unban him. Also do you know exactly what program he was banned for? And how you know that? Did the support say you which program he was banned for?
Bans for using forbidden programs should never be debatable.

(mpod89) #10

I have to say that whatever they’re doing right now it seems to be working. In the last 2 weeks i ran into cheaters only twice, both had one shot kill cheats, and i played quite a bit during that period. It’s a improvement since when i first started playing it seemed i ran into one cheater a day.
Should they consider removing bans? Maybe, if they’re banning people for something stupid. I don’t know what gets you banned except cheating since I’m not using any programs that might be shifty i didn’t care enough to read what’s on you’ll get banned list. If a program is on that list and you used it, whether you used it for cheating or not, you can’t really complain about the ban. In situations where you used something that is often used for cheating/hide cheats it’s fair to ban for detecting that program. I’m sure that every cheater out there would claim he wasn’t using it to cheat. A firm hand is preferable to opening the flood doors for cheaters to come back.

(CameFromThePast) #11

No, they shouldn’t. You can’t get banned for no reason. EoT.

(Sussepus) #12

voted no but could also vote depending on how…

Bans shouldnt be applied in the first place unless there are definite proof of cheating.
And if the proof is there the ban shouldnt be lifted. so in a perfect world there would be no need to appeal. but thats not going to happen … :tongue:

If SD find out that the AC have banned due to a bug, anyone being banned because of it should automatically be unbanned.
but of course, the only way to see this may be to accept appeals, so option 3 may be the one i really voted for

(Amerika) #13

[quote=“MarsRover;99112”]I’m a programmer and a PC tinker. I totally see myself one day installing/using something like sandboxie/wireshark/whatever and getting banned.

I’m currently level 27. I’ve spent money on this game. I’m posting on this forum. Mind you - I can understand why NGS automatically bans for software that has legitimate purposes. What I want is support being reasonable and unbanning me.[/quote]

I too have reason to install a lot of that software. That’s why I do all my work from my laptop that I don’t play any MP games on.

However, I’ve investigated some of the software some people claim have caused them to be banned and found that not to be the case in every instance thus far (3 tests). So a few programs that people are claiming to have been banned for using are not actually banning people. And one I know of only kicks and prevents you from playing while it’s on but does not ban.

(Sir_Slam) #14

Weird. I have sandboxie running all the time and DB doesn’t pick up on it after the NGS update. Its a nice little cyber condom, I usually forget about having it on.

Granted I dont have any programs running in it when im playing DB. Its just kind of sitting there.

(Faraleth) #15

@Sir_Slam Yikes! I’d be VERY careful from now on then :s because NGS is definitely supposed to detect that and kick/ban for it.

(Sir_Slam) #16

Yeah, thanks for the heads up. I’d hate to get the boot over a sandboxed youtube video. :stuck_out_tongue:

(SereneFlight) #17

You can also report hackers there but when you see people playing 2+ weeks after you reported them you realize reporting hackers is a complete joke and all that effort you went through was completely wasted.

(Amerika) #18

You can also report hackers there but when you see people playing 2+ weeks after you reported them you realize reporting hackers is a complete joke and all that effort you went through was completely wasted.[/quote]

They might not have been found to be cheating or not enough conclusive evidence. Or they are the same person on a new account (quite a few like that).

(SereneFlight) #19

…yeah… instakill + aimbot + name change on a video wasn’t enough and l had links to their profile pages in notepad (not my first rodeo with hackers and Nexon).

(Black) #20

I’m not sure on the specifics on how the anti-cheat system works but I’m don’t support appealing a ban if a player submits you with substantial EVIDENCE.
At the time I believe the ban should not be negotiated. It should stay in place, you got caught.

However the anti-cheat on the other hand is a little different. No system is flawless and it’s possible you can get banned falsely. Hiccups and freak malfunctions do happen. I’ve been kicked from servers due to a apparent security violation when I was doing absolutely nothing.
Nothing can be certain at this point.