Should Medics get regeneration in Quake Wars?

(Kendle) #61

Yay, the great Medic debate, I’ve been gone too long :slight_smile:

One of the reasons I stopped playing ET is because the Medic is too powerful. Period. Sorry if that doesn’t fit with some people’s opinions but it’s just the plain simple truth. On “high-skill” servers like BiO the reason 90% of players play Medic isn’t because of the snazzy uniform :wink: (and for those of you who don’t know, BiO is not a server where people who pub ET 6 hours a day and think they’re high skill go to play, it’s a server where top clan players who really are high-skill go to play).

I’m not sure the answer is disable regen however, I think the answer is lower starting health and less scope to re-pack themselves. In ET part of the problem is slow ROF, giving Meds the opportunity to take some damage, run away and re-pack, and then come back to the fight. Having more powerful weapons that can kill quicker would help (the main reason RTCW Meds weren’t so dominant)

Limiting their ability to re-pack sounds OK on paper, but as has been mentioned if you prevent them completely you’ll just need more Meds. A compromise might be to slow down the rate at which packs can be dispensed. Giving them the same starting health as everyone else would probably also help, depending on the power of the weapons and how easy / difficult it is to kill a fully healthed Med.

Of couse this whole debate entirely depends on whether there even is a problem given ET:QW isn’t even out yet!

(NOYB) #62

Like others have said. People are focusing too much on self-healing. That’s not what makes an uber-medic. “It’s the ammo, stupid.” W:ET is a rambo-medic paradise.

(Kendle) #63

It’s not the ammo at all. A player with 30/0 does the exact same damage as a player with 30/90. A player with 30/90 is just as susceptible to receiving damage as a player with 30/0. The amount of ammo a player has determines whether they engage the enemy or not, it doesn’t effect the outcome of the exchange.

People play Med for the health advantage, simple as. Take 2 players of equal skill and the one with the most health WILL win the encounter, it’s not rocket science. Although thinking about it, that’s only true because Meds in ET also have the most powerful weapon any Class can have, the SMG. Give them a weaker weapon, like a Rifle, and that might solve the problem as well. :wink:

(Lanz) #64

Sure it is, less ammo means they have a disadvantage, meaning that they need to save on it and rely on field ops to get more. That would aslo mean that more people would play other classes because of this disadvantage. Sure they might win one fight, but then they’re stranded until they get more ammo. Without ammo cases or XP upgrades we would see a hell of a lot fewer medics. I guarantee it. Or keep the ammo cases but let medics only carry one clip at the time. People who are more interested in killing than reviving would pick another class.

Now they have lots of health and ammo, which is wrong, it should be a case of more health or more ammo.

(Kendle) #65

BiO (to an extent) proves otherwise. There are no XP upgrades on BiO and no Field-Ops yet Meds prevail, with whatever ammo crates there are on the map being played. Besides, a Med can always beat a non-Med with their health advantage and then take their gun :wink:

(SCDS_reyalP) #66

Which is another things RTCW meds couldn’t do. Another point is that on many “leet” servers, most of the things that give other classes advantages over meds have been (rightly, IMO) gimped as “spam”. Medics are much less of a threat if you have unlimited PFs :moo:

I do agree that it isn’t all ammo, but it certainly is a factor. As you mentioned, the speed of kills is a big factor too. In anything but closer quarters, the medic can almost always run and pack in ET.

(MuffinMan) #67

if this discussion is still about et:qw then I can only say: wait until the game is out before you complain about balancing issues!

and for all that are talking about w:et: it’s the style of this game, period - if you don’t like it play something else, it’s always been like this in et and either you accept it or not - there’s no reason for arguing now about it… I never liked coverts and I think that mortar encourages camping - so what, am I expected to start new “ban mortar!”- threads everyday?

(Lanz) #68

That’s exactly what I do, the unbalanced ET is no fun for me any longer. Many servers have these unwritten rules that they don’t do objectives and the team consists of 90%+ medics. So it’s DM with medics, how fun. Sure not all servers are like that but lots of servers where really good players play are, and I want a challenge when I play.

Anyway this is OT, the discussion is more about what we want ET:QW to be than anything else.

(MuffinMan) #69

what really kills et for me these days is that there’s almost no server left without xp save, I’m playing counterstrike source until et:qw is out and if I don’t like it I will be waiting for rtcw 2 (I did always like rtcw better than et) anyway I won’t complain too much about stuff in qw that I don’t like, not if it can’t / won’t change in any case. I would prefer the futiristic setting of et:qw though when it comes to mapping, so I really hope that qw will be good …

(senator) #70

What I find strange that this entire discussion about which class is better that others resolves entirely about the ability to win a firefight, and nobody is arguing about the supposedly most important aspect in an objective based game, which are abilities that help you to achieve your objectives or deny the other team exactly that.

Can a Medic prevent the Allies from building the bridge in FuelDump or battery? no, but a Lv3 FieldOps can by arty-spamming the build-boxes.

can a medic win FuelDump by a sneaky move? No, but am engineer together with a CovOps can.

Can a Medic defend the truck-approach to the gold in GoldRush all on it’s own? no, but a MG42 can.

My point is that the medic is the strongest class in a 1:1 firefight, no doubt about that, but unless you care more about your e-penis and your kill/death ratio than about winning the match, thats not a gamebreaking ability.
The reason why so many ‘leet’ players on pubs play medic, is probably not because they want to win the map in the quickest possible way, but because they want to frag a bit, practice their aim, simply having some fun, they can do their ‘work’ (winning the map) during their clan games.
On true public servers where the non-clan players or fun-clans meet, it’s indeed more about winning the map, and you therefore have a greater diversity of classes, often the engineer is the most played class on true pubs.
I also noticed that on ‘leet’ servers your are flamed for picking anything but a SMG, killing the enemy with PF, RifleNade or ArtySpam is often considered lame, another reason to make me belief that beople go to these servers to measure their SMG skill against the other players, and no wonder that they therefor pick the strongest 1:1 SMG class.
On true pubs on the other hand these medic advantges in 1:1 are compensated by the abilities of the other classes, be it massive SplashDamage attack, arty spam, mine fields, rifle nades and what not.

The best cover for an engineer is not a medic, it’s a CovOps who throws some smoke

The best counter to fieldops arty spam on the assault ramp on battery is no medic, its a sniper or a PF or mortar, camping to kill anybody sticking his nose out of the forward bunker.

The best way to break a spawn-rape on railgun is no medic-push, its 2 FieldOps clearing the way with airstrikes.

The best way to kill an MG42 who is blocking the main exit of Oasis is no medic, its a Panzerfaust soldier.

If people want to be the best in 1:1 firefights, they should pick the Medic (preferably in a different game where deathmatches are still the way to go), if you want to win the map instead, true teamwork between the classes is still the way to go, because for every situation there is a class best suited for the job, and in most cases but 1:1 firefights it’s not the medic.

(MuffinMan) #71

:lol:

(Floris) #72

A game where all classes are equal in strength sounds pretty boring to me, there has to be a main class which can take care of the shooting and can handle a lot of bullets :slight_smile:

If the medics woudnt be so powerfull in ET there would be a lot of camping arround med/ammo cabinets :slight_smile:

(Kendle) #73

I do, DOD:S since last Sept., I’m only here contributing to the discussion in the hope of affecting Meds in ET:QW, i.e. “please SD look at how powerful they are in ET and don’t make them so in ET:QW”, though I’d be quick to add that to a certain extent SD haven’t made them too powerful, the issue with Meds is as reyalP pointed out, everything else has been nerfed (by others since) but the Med hasn’t, and so is more powerful than intended by comparison.

However, if I play ET:QW I’ll be playing it Clanned, and I’ll only be playing it Clanned if it comes with an “XP off” cvar out of the box. No offense people but Clan matches is where it’s at for me, pubs just don’t cut it. Even the very best pub servers around only use 1/100th the teamwork seen in Clan matches. So for me the (relevant to this thread) issue is “how wll the Med compare in a 6-v-6 ET:QW Clan match with XP disabled?”, fully accepting that SD may not care and fully accepting that I might not buy it if that’s the case (and fully accepting that SD probably won’t give a shit if I don’t :slight_smile: )

(vcs2600) #74

That’s just another balance issue – how much XP does one get for completing/defending objectives versus the XP getting in a rambo firefights and reviving? Yeah, XP doesn’t win games, but the current playerbase doesn’t really care.

I just want to second the RTCW comments – on the pubs one usually found a good mix of 1/3 Medic, 1/3 FO/LT and 1/3 Eng/Soldier. On ET Pubs, it seems like 75% are Medics. When everyone’s playing one class, you have a balance issue. period.

(B0rsuk) #75

Ask any engineer. Yes, he can. You can’t really push medic back and leave him badly wounded. This works against all other classes. Medic will be seconds.On battery, field op is often low on health as soon as he calls an airstrike/arty. He needs a medic, and can no longer do much alone.
On Fuel Dump, medic can survive on his own, and later take weapons from opponents. Take a medic or two and camp bridge area. NO, it doesn’t cost more (2 players) than a single field op, because medics can do things a field op can’t. Medics will make sure no one can reach the grate, or jump over barbed wire (near bridge). Additionaly, medics sitting there make life harder for sniping covert ops.

can a medic win FuelDump by a sneaky move? No, but am engineer together with a CovOps can.

Yes, he can, because against anyone but newbiest teams, there will be at least one or two people defending the path to fuel dump. Medics are better for clearing route than anyone else - lone covert almost can’t shoot because he’ll lose disguise, and it doesn’t take much to kill an engy.
Similarly, medics are the best for countering sneaky moves on fuel dump, because they’re the toughest class. Sneaky plant already requires a covop and engy - both classes are good against landmines, covop better, but anyway, no other classes can clear mines.

Can a Medic defend the truck-approach to the gold in GoldRush all on it’s own? no, but a MG42 can.

This is bullshit. There are many ways of taking out MG42, like rifle grenades, snipers, standard grenades even, fire support, mortar, smoke grenade, or even smg if you come from the right side. Mg42 is good, but it’s the last ‘class’ I would call self-sufficient. Aside from people covering your back, you need ammo, but you always start with just 1 clip. Guess which class drains ammo cabinets more ? 30 ammo per clip medic,or 150 clip soldier ? And you often don’t even have time to get up and run away against arty/airstrike.
Medics don’t have the same firepower as mg42, but are much more flexible and can dodge stuff. And on Gold Rush, both stationary MG42s overlooking bank are actually worth using. Medics are very good for stationary MG42s.

If people want to be the best in 1:1 firefights, they should pick the Medic (preferably in a different game where deathmatches are still the way to go), if you want to win the map instead, true teamwork between the classes is still the way to go, because for every situation there is a class best suited for the job, and in most cases but 1:1 firefights it’s not the medic.

Aww, but Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory is 90% 1:1 firefights.

The situation is likely to change a bit in ET:QW, but I don’t see any reason other than vehicles.

Someone complaining making medics weaker will force players to use more medics: wrong.
At the moment, majority of medpacks are eaten by medics. We could do with existing medics provided they would help others a bit. I occasionaly even meet players who openly say “I don’t heal” when asked for help.
I already suggested solution: medics unable to actively heal themselves, but with buffed passive health regen. With right numbers, it would slow selfheal speed a bit without doing anything to medics ability to heal others. In fact, they would be able to heal people MORE this way, because they wouldn’t use charge bar when automatically healing themselves.

Someone saying slowing down healthpack ‘rate of fire’ would be beneficial: wrong.
It would hinder helpful medics. I think medic ‘ubersoldier’ potential should be lowered to make it closer to others, but without affecting patients.

So many people seem to have never played Quake 3 Fortress. In that game (mod by Splash Damage) medics regenerate health very slowly, and can’t actively heal themselves. Yet they were one of popular classes, especially for flag capping and harassment. But it was largely due to their higher than usual speed, ability to masturbate with concussion grenades, and independence on ammo affected by engy’s pulse grenades (rockets, shells). But it proves medics can be played without being uber powerful; medics had to be careful with soldiers and minigunners, for example.

(datoo) #76

:eek2:

(SCDS_reyalP) #77

The reality is that in public play, people will gravitate toward the class that gives them the best chance if fights. As I have said before, enouraging teamplay is good, but doing it by making it so that some poor sucker has to play a class that has no chance in a 1v1 isn’t the way to do it.

can a medic win FuelDump by a sneaky move? No, but am engineer together with a CovOps can.

A medic and an engineer can, and they have a much better chance of getting there.

My comment was about making unable to pick up their own medics. That does indeed mean that you need more of them. In normal ET, a medic can balance between healing himself, and reviving/healing a few people around him. If you prevent the medic from picking up his own packs, you now need 2 medic in any group that previously needed one. Otherwise, your one medic will get hurt, be unable to heal, die, and soon everyone will be dead. Regeneration doesn’t solve this because it takes far too long. You whole squad would have to be stopping and hiding after every fight. This isn’t just speculation, I’ve played enough on servers using this setting to see that it is true.

The fact that there are a few in ET who don’t heal others doesn’t change this. In my experience, even the most rambo meds will heal or revive, they just don’t go out of their way to do it.

(B0rsuk) #78

I already said passive regeneration could be made higher to compensate, I don’t know how much more obvious I can make it.

Splash Damage, if you’re listening
At the very least, please make it VERY easy to count/distinguish medics who heal others from those who don’t. Something like amount of medic exp gained this round, on score board. The reason is that when I see 3 medics on my team, I never know if any of them actually heals. I’ve seen sometimes run past a fallen teammate.
What I mean is that I would like to know when another medic is needed. Just checking medic count won’t suffice.

(MuffinMan) #79

a medic who is working for a bigger team in firefights is best advised to use his own packs and only revive - pack regeneration takes too long anyway to constantly support many teammates.

while being under fire, I give packs depending on the situation but if it’s a close one with heavy fights I eat my packs myself and just run from one fallen to the next - with the start-health given by the revive I can keep them alive longer than stand there and give packs to one guy while the rest is being mown down. even with fast regeneration this would be a lot more difficult (in w:et)

what I was used to in rtcw: some teams of 1 med + 1 field ops, field ops in front, medic right behind - using the field ops as shield. as field ops I even ran between my medic and the attacker when I ran out of ammo, blocking enemy fire from the medic while reloading and knowing I’d get revived …

(HellToupee) #80

Since when is the smg the most powerful weapon? its the base weapon the weapon practically every class bar the soldier which only gets it when leveled up. All other classes generally have more powerful weapons or offensive abilties, medic is supposed to be balanced in that his single and only balancing advantage over others is health.