Shotguns

(scre4m.) #61

thats why I wrote less pellets AND less spread. So it would not be random at all. If you aim for the centre of the hitmodel, all pellets should hit,otherwise only 2/3 will hit. The randomness is reduced and aim gets rewarded.

(tokamak) #62

Double post.

(tokamak) #63

By doing that you’re moving the weapon into the direction of a high powered single shot rifle. And don’t get me wrong, I like those weapons and they need to be in the game as well but it’s just not the same role as a shotgun should have. A shotgun is not just about hitting the centre, it’s also about hitting the centre from up close. The spread of it is what makes it a close-up weapon and is kind of the point of the whole gun.

The shotgun needs to be the ultimate melee gun. The high spread allows for it being easy to hit something up close but if you want to cause true damage then it’s going to need both accuracy and short range.

If you follow my system then you get to keep the spread without it being random and still reaping enormous awards for hitting the centre.

(scre4m.) #64

A fast damage fall-off makes the biggest difference between the gameplay comparing a rifle with a shotgun.
But I have never seen a game, that managed to balance a shotgun well enough to make it a gun suitable for comp as well as for pub.

If you make it random, it will always be fail. Either too weak or too strong.
It should not be random, have a fast damage fall-off, and not 1-shot with bodyshots.

=> A weapon for close combat only, but way weaker as it is now. This would give an advantage to people, who know all stages of a map and adapt their loadout accordingly.

(Bangtastic) #65

I think the shotgun is pretty well right now, or maybe im too bad to aim properly idk.
+1 fast fall of, whether it does sometimes one shots, when enemy is really upclose, but rate of fire should be really low. Or it needs at least 2 shots, but little bit faster RoF. I dont see a problem that a pumpgun is strong in close quarter combat. Because if you miss, you will be dead. Simple.

Most important thing: As long as you cant kill enemies with one shots even 15-30 metres away as in BF3 im happy with everything xD

(tokamak) #66

Damage fall off is a bit of a quick-fix though. It would make the shotgun really unpredictable for the user. It’s not as intuitive and easy to gauge as a wide cone of fire. Spread gives you a dynamic crosshair to rely upon while fall-off does not.

I discuss a different approach here. You can increase the amount of pellets, adjust their individual flat damage accordingly to lower the random effect. Because the pellets will follow a Gaussian distribution you’ll find that the highest amount of damage will lie in the center. This alone is not enough however, you can amplify this effect by multiplying the damage with each pellet hit.

Combined you’ve got the most intuitive, fair yet rewarding way to play with a shotgun.

(scre4m.) #67

The Shotgun is in no means pretty well. It’s OP. 95% of the players would confirm this, when you started a poll.
@Tokamak: I dont know why it should only feel like a quick fix. + the Shotgun gets highly predictable: close range= powerful, mid-range=very weak, long-range= dont even shoot.
Learning the exact distances where to use a shotgun or not has to be done anyway.

(Bangtastic) #68

yes i already read it, actually its pretty good needs to be tested…

Or what about a acceleration shotgun? first shots - slower but more dmg- the more you shoot the faster it gets, but dmg decreases ofc?
Or a shotgun with 2 modes kinda the one of UT as inspiration?
What about a shotgun with two chambers, you can shoot the first and second shot one by one (mode 1) as you like (but not as quick as possible, small delay) , or mode 2 will blast off both chambers, resulting in a bigger spread. In return the reload is gonna take a while.
I gonna brainstorm more :smiley: There must be a solution!

Just an example, I know therefore attributes of the gun needs to be changed.

(tokamak) #69

It’s not just the range but also the dynamic spread. Both combined is what determines the power of the shotgun. Players can’t visualise the damage fall-off so they will indeed only be able to discern in short-middle-long which is incredibly crude.

A cross-hair indicating the spread however shows exactly what the type of damage will be because it shows the target in relation to the dynamic spread in relation to the distance. That’s three factors all encompassed in one extremely lucid indicator. That’s why I prefer spread over ranged fall-off.

(scre4m.) #70

Having a look at the polls created in this forum regarding spread,RoF, recoil and general weapon meachanics, I can only remember polls asking for less spread.
I dont think this community has a lot of ‘spread-supporters’
Weapons should be balanced on RoF and Damage mainly. Spread and recoil is in general quite low on all weapons, players are still asking to further reduce spread though.

So why shouldn’t a Shotgun be balanced the same way? So what if it feels alittle more like a rifle for short-range.

/crystal ball on

I bet a Shotgun balanced with spread will be either OP or underpowered and end up unused

/crystal ball off

(Bangtastic) #71

[QUOTE=scre4m.;433124]Having a look at the polls created in this forum regarding spread,RoF, recoil and general weapon meachanics, I can only remember polls asking for less spread.
I dont think this community has a lot of ‘spread-supporters’
Weapons should be balanced on RoF and Damage mainly. Spread and recoil is in general quite low on all weapons, players are still asking to further reduce spread though.

So why shouldn’t a Shotgun be balanced the same way? So what if it feels alittle more like a rifle for short-range.

/crystal ball on

I bet a Shotgun balanced with spread will be either OP or underpowered and end up unused

/crystal ball off[/QUOTE]

There must be an overall change to the weapons otherwise, its only left mouse click only^^ I think in the end, this will become reality^^ Actually its quite simple^^

(Kendle) #72

The problem with the Shotgun currently, IMO, is the 1-shot-kill to the body. You can’t beat a Shotgun with anything if the other guy has decent aim. Put 5 bullets into him and BOOM you’re dead. He may only have 10HP left, but that’s 10HP more than you. All the other guns, even the Soldier’s, are too weak to support a 1-body-shot-kill weapon in this game.

To make the Shotgun 1-head-shot-kill only I guess you’d have to reduce the spread quite a bit. Personally I’d also add LOTS of recoil (think Mauser in RTCW), at the moment it’s way too easy to get 2 shots on target with the long TTK of the other guns.

(Bangtastic) #73

hmm i tried it but mostly i needed 2 rounds, or the enemy had less health less. Sometimes its hard to get the enemy though, +1 for Recoil, but i could imagine someone can do good despite that.
But why less spread, that means it is shooting more than a rifle? it would mean that it will be even more accurate, or am i an ignorant, who isnt getting it^^ (sry if yes).
What about two-rounds per kill in general?

(tokamak) #74

I don´t see the issue. There´s plenty of weapons that can kill a player well before the second shell of the shotgun so why should a shotgun player need to have at least that time?
The TTK currently is incredibly low and one-shot kills are a part of that.

(scre4m.) #75

So what comes next? a Crossbow for even more one-shot kills?

Dont wanna snub, but players with a lower skill level wont see the big probs of the Shotgun( especially one-shot-kill), but players on a higher skill level are far away from perfection with the Shotgun and can already rape all players on pub with their shotty.

Not sure whether a second fire-mode is a good idea. Can’t really estimate how the things Tast1c suggested would look like in DB. I personally liked the flak cannon in UT-titles ever since. I can’t imagine a similiar gun in DB though.