RtCW (Multiplayer) Remake on D3/UDK...Thoughts?


(Dashiva) #1

Just thought I’d bounce this off of some people. I’m pretty much set to attempt a sort of remake of the RtCW multiplayer component on a modern engine. I’ve been playing games like QW and BF3 lately and they get lost in the minutiae of leveling up. When I play Battlefield I feel like I’m playing World of Warcraft rather than a shooter. I really haven’t liked where FPSes in general have gone and really think that RtCW and ET were the golden days. That being said I’d like to take a crack at making my own iteration of the RtCW multiplayer. The goals are:

Class Based
Infantry Only
Arcade Feel (as opposed to the realism most WW2 games tend to focus on)
Smaller Maps (16 Players max)
WW2/Occult Theme (This was really cool in RtCW)
Emphasis on shooting and tactics over experience points and spam (see Quakewars for an example of how not to accomplish this).

I’ve come to the point where I have level design worked out and blocked for three or four levels and am now at the point where I’m ready to put serious time into it. However I think I need to make a choice on which way I am going to go engine/development wise. I’ve been learning UDK mapping for the past couple of weeks, and I’ve used radiant in the past for ET maps. I’ve basically come to a crossroads in regards to a design that I can execute in a reasonable amount of time (3 or 4 hours a night over a few months).

The obvious answer would be to just extend ET/Xreal but I don’t want to do this for a couple of reasons. First: the ET community is at a point where the price of entry is really high. You just can’t go into it as a noob and get any real enjoyment when everyone’s been playing the game for at least 5 years. While I like the gunplay it’s stagnant. I’d like to move away from the id3 engine itself for this reason. Everyone knows the feel of it. Secondly: we all have decent PCs at this point, with UDK, at least, I can code for DX11 and do more modern things in the engine to make it look and feel better.

So here are the pros and cons as I see them:

UDK Pros:

Up to date graphics/physics/code. Good default “feel” to the engine.
Large user base with good forum support and tutorials.
Steam integration.
Well thought out tools.
Works well for terrain/outdoor maps.
Built in Voicecom/matchmaking, etc.

Cons:
Emphasis on static meshes means I need to learn to model proficiently.
Hard to get prefabs for WW2 themed games.
Not open-source, no Linux support, no engine code for low level functions.

Doom3 Pros:
Open source.
Large numbers of prefabs.
Lots of community experience.
Open-source, easier to mod, will bring in the Linux community.
Faster mapping.

Cons:
Engine and netcode feel bad.
Terrible at rendering outdoor environments (though I have heard that the megatexture source is included so this may change)
Outdated (no widescreen, multi-thread).

I’m assuming the basic outdatedness of the d3 engine will be rectified in a few months with something like iodoom3, but that still leaves me with having to use a poorly performing engine for development. However, UDK seems like it will take up a lot of time on the modelling end of things. I’d have to have a larger team and the UDK scene seems like it isn’t really interested in a RtCW type project.

So, there you have it, what would you do if you were in my shoes? I’m assuming I’m going to have to collaborate with a coder and modeler to get this done, but I’d like to build up a few maps before I let this out into the wild.

Thanks.


(Dashiva) #2

Just an update I am still working. I’ve moved this thread to the RtCW section because it really isn’t ET.

http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/33837-Introducing-NovaWolf-(RtCW-MP-on-UDK)?p=416489


(eiM) #3

Sounds like you have put some proper thoughts in this and the whole post sounds reasonable. By just looking at the Pros and Cons I’d surely go with the UDK. From my experience with Axis Revenge the biggest trouble is the immense amount of work that a small team will never accomplish in a reasonable amount of time for the project to become a success. I’ve struggled to build a big enough team of competent people, eventhough I may admit I was not ready to lead the project at that time. My fear would be that even if you are qualified to lead that project well, you might not get enough people to work with you to achieve your goal.

Just my thoughts. Lovely idea :wink:


(Infinitypl123) #4

Another project without begining and future… nice :).


(donmichelangelo) #5

sign eims post

Most community/opensource driven games take a lot of time due the immense amount of work and therefore also more time than commercial projects.
I seriously dont know any FPS/RTS opensource game which was done within a time frame of 3 years, though there might be a such a game, but regarding games like Hexen Edge of Chaos, or 0 A.D they are after a long time playable but still not finished and dont show as the planned “end product”.

Regarding your thoughts: best way, considering your listed pros and cons, would be to stick with an idsoftware engine, either etxreal, doom3 (iodoom3 at some point of progress) or as a mod for etqw. In both cases you could use and adapt models and other assets between all three engines/games, etxreal is also capable to use MD5 but it’s very limited in things like entity handling and so on but therefore very known and it could be made secure due to the ioquake3 branch.

However you would be on the safe side to go with an idtech engine, if you perhaps consider also to make a single player then it might be even better to use (io)doom3.


(Dashiva) #6

As far as this being a huge project, I’m looking at basically lifting the core gameplay from RtCW and then porting it to a few new maps. As things go now this will be a small game. I’m not expecting it to take less than a year or two, but also you have to remember we’re not reinventing the wheel here. I think the general plan at this point is to do one or two really high quality maps and have them drive the team acquisition and development.

The thing I worry about Doom3 is that it frankly feels like crap. The netcode sucks. Also, having 800 odd hours into Quakewars (on top of at least a thousand in ET and RtCW) I’m not sure if I can make Idtech4 feel the way I want it to. UDK seems to feel correct right out of the box, so I’m swayed towards it at the moment.


(Mateos) #7

Tried to contact Pegazus about the one for ETQW, their website is dead since September.

Sounds good! After Duke Nukem 3D, not RtCW under UDK :slight_smile: Would be awesome.


(FFSturm) #8

There is already a Doom 3 netcode fix project. It needs a little bit backup, but it’s there. http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=25256

You can notice the diference in those two vids:


Also, Doom 3 terrible outdoors without mega-textures? I don’t think so. It’s mostly how you design your project. There are a lot of tricks to make it look good to a 2007-8 standard (not at crysis level ofc).

I would probably release a test/early alpha of my project running Id tech 4 when i polish some stuff. (REDO AGAIN all the stuff with the new GPL code) Ofc, it will have only a test map. (mostly to give an idea about gameplay). This is to due a lot of stuff I have implemented to Doom 3. It’s mostly basic in old Id tech 3 and new games, but Doom 3 didn’t have them lol.
like: melee with weapons, aim via scope for rifles, dynamic animations (idle. locking guns and stuff), first person body view, destructible objects, position mg, smooth movement (all movement stuff), fast paced action shooting,…


(Dragonji) #9

Steam support in UDK owns Doom 3 in my eyes.


(Mateos) #10

ModDB page of Mars City Security (MCS):

A good one to follow, thanks for the links!


(FFSturm) #11

You can always make an Achievement system by yourself on id tech 4. It just needs “time” and knownledge of script.


(eiM) #12

Steam is more than the Achievement system :wink:


(FFSturm) #13

ofc lol…


(BackSnip3) #14

[QUOTE=Mateos;390131]Tried to contact Pegazus about the one for ETQW, their website is dead since September.

Sounds good! After Duke Nukem 3D, not RtCW under UDK :slight_smile: Would be awesome.[/QUOTE]

It’s not dead, we are just no very active and haven’t posted, but there is work going on, we just don’t have coders. This is hard. Also the ETQW sdk is buggy with windows 7. :frowning:

There is “the dark sense of war” mod on doom3 already about remaking wolfenstein. Greetz


(Mateos) #15

Ah, thanks for the news :slight_smile: Was following it by the website, I guessed at September it will slow down, but so much for no news since then :confused:

Yup, also following this mod on ModDB. And Overdose, which presents some mp_beach reworked screens :slight_smile:


(ILuvMoneyy) #16

hey dashiva,
maybe u can message me with some more informations and i will give u all the help i can offer cause i feel like doing exactly this project since 2 years now but dont know where to start things off
greets


(Dashiva) #17

Sorry I forgot about this thread I assumed it went belly-up after everyone told me I was crazy. Thanks for the responses. Anyway, a few things:

First, Steam is important because of the social functions. Everyone I know in gaming anymore is on Steam. Xfire is deprecated. If there is some way we could get an ET/RtCW remake on Steam we’d have an instant audience by virtue of the network effect. Unfortunately this is probably not possible if it is open source, which I think is an overriding concern for me at this point. I’d like to do my development on Linux.

Now, more about the game.

I’ve spent the last week testing out engines/development packages as a sort of exploratory step. These include UDK, Unity 3d, Neoaxis, Torque 3d, and even open source engines like Cafu and Yake. There are three major problems with most of these.

  1. Lack of anticheat. This is a huge one. As far as I know the competitive ET scene was essentially killed by this. As far as I know there is no easy way to add anticheat to any commercial engine.

  2. The physics feel like crap, even after fooling around with some coding examples to change some of the settings and gun physics. If you play RtCW or ET and go to any other engine (with maybe the exception of UT or Torque) it feels insubstantial, like there’s a disconnect between your shooting and hitting. This is why I’ve always hated Source engine games. Along my engine journey it’s become obvious that I would have to spend an inordinant amount of time messing with the physics just to make it feel right.

This is perhaps one of the most important aspects of any game. In most games we’re like rats hitting a feeding bar over and over again. I want my game to appeal at a fundamental psychological level. This means that the basic interactions need to fell right. Unfortunately no other game engine has really felt right to me.

  1. A large amount of time spent basically copying a gametype. None of the engines listed above have reliable templates for the kind of FPS I’d like to make. Granted an RtCW style system is relatively simple but there are still hours of coding that need to be done to get it to work that could be more productively spent on modeling.

So to make a grand circle I’ve kind of come back to the idTech 3 base because of the physics, gametypes and because there’s a working anticheat (I can’t remember what it’s called but it’s running on Euro servers). I think I can probably make this work if I use either ETXreal or OpenWolf or do something like Sturm is doing with the Dark Sense of War but multiplayer.

The problem of course, is making it look “new.” As Sturm says you can probably do this with a few tricks. A large part of course is art pipelining and development. I think the biggest elephant in the room with regards to idTech based games is BSP. Every new game is essentially modeled any more. Even in UDK BSP is largely deprecated. I think the way around this is good art direction and setting up a rigid pipeline using modeling software. The obvious question is whether the newer iterations of idTech3/4 are up to importing large set pieces of geometry (or whether we have to use something like the process detailed here: http://www.katsbits.com/tutorials/blender/map-basics-tutorial.php ). Darkradiant looks like it is able to do some of the things you would find in a modern world editor - http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Rescaling,_Resizing,_Models_in_Dark_Radiant. As it already has a modern materials editor it looks like a good choice for the base dev tool. Anyhow, I’m not looking to having AAA style graphics, but something along the lines of newer Indie games. I’d just like it not to look like Quake3 :D.

So there we are. As far as where I’m at right now:

The main planning is done for the game concept, back story, weapons. Even map mockups/diagrams. Working on concept art with another ETQW player as we speak. If you’re interested in that kind of stuff maybe I should start a new thread.


(eiM) #18
  1. Lack of anticheat. This is a huge one. As far as I know the competitive ET scene was essentially killed by this. As far as I know there is no easy way to add anticheat to any commercial engine.

I can gladly ensure you this is not true. It is true that there is a lack of anticheat but that is the case in EVERY competetive game. You can not win the war against coders who make money from bots spent in prestigeus games that involve money on high level. Ofcourse you have to make it harder in some way to use bots and from time to time bust some cheaters or make their bots dont work anymore. But as long time admin and even Master League Admin for Enemy Territory in the ESL and on Crossfire (Lans and tournaments) I can ensure you that cheaters surely did not kill the competetive scene. Its more a lack of updates on the game, its functions and bugs along with the age of the game resulting in fewer players and thus fewer competition.


(Dashiva) #19

Euro ET had a lot longer lifespan than NA ET, but then again Europe just has better gaming leagues. I remember back in 2008 or so I kept trying to find a decent ET game but every server was full of hackers.

The best thing obviously is good admin support in the game, but even rudimentary anti-cheat would go a long way to increasing confidence.


(Virus047) #20

[QUOTE=Dashiva;391719]Euro ET had a lot longer lifespan than NA ET, but then again Europe just has better gaming leagues. I remember back in 2008 or so I kept trying to find a decent ET game but every server was full of hackers.

The best thing obviously is good admin support in the game, but even rudimentary anti-cheat would go a long way to increasing confidence.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Make this happen. I’ll be monitoring.