Rifle accuracy (or lack thereof) in-game

(SCDS_reyalP) #21

Actually, the current unscoped rifle does 34 damage for a body shot (according to the ET page on http://www.rtcwonline.com/dummies/) , so it would have to be less than that if you made it more accurate. SMGs are 18.

(gonzoboi) #22

Hi all,

As I see it, i agree with the fact that rifles should be more accurate. While their damage is ok with me ( a couple of shots and the dude goes down), i find it ridiculous for example in fueldump where you can happily shoot allies down from the base when they are coming our of the tunnel with an mp40, while its damn hard to hit them with the unscoped rifle. I am no big gun expert but i always thought the MP40 is a 9mm submachinegun, and hence useful for spraying lots of bullets at short range, not for sniping…

The K98 is considered by many people the most accurate rifle ever made, it is still used today by sport shooting freaks, and the fact that the german sniper rifle was simply the regular k98 rifle with an added scope gives us a hint on its accuracy. Same goes more or less for the Garand.

A funny anecdote: during Spanish civil war (1936-1939), my grandfather fought with a Mauser rifle, and during breaks in the battles he and his dudes shot the rats which ran through the trenches to pass the time and avoid diseases (and stolen food!)… they took a bullet off a round and replaced it by a ball of paper, loaded it and shot… and he says they hit rats at 200-300m with that crap ammuniton!! :clap:

(TheBuilder) #23

I respond to what they say, defending my argument. If you think that’s rude, then you must be afraid of being proven wrong.

(TheBuilder) #24

Boy, I’m pretty good at this balancing stuff after all! :smiley:
Increase in rifle accuracy notwithstanding, that should still be a great damage setting.

(Vengeance) #25

I dont think there is anything wrong with the garand i have seen ppl do amazing things with it and think its already very balanced. In fact i have seen some ppl say its 2 powerful with the nade launching ability.

I think its perfect the way it is.

(damocles) #26

I do tend to agree that using an unscoped garand comes down to pure luck. Sometimes your shots land on target adn you can get good kills, sometimes they go wild and you’re lucky if you hit the tree you’re standing next too.

Personally I think the damage levels should remain as they are or perhaps be reduced slightly, but both the accuracy and the pause between shots for rifles should be increased. This way the rifle would be effective at distance, but close up against a SMG it would be slaughtered. This would not have an effect on snipers either, who already shoot slowly and that I feel are already well balanced. But the unscoped garand is a weapon of luck not skill. Although it does kind of make up for it in that if you become skillful with the nade launcher you can be absolutely deadly at medium-long ranges.

I did make a thread about the rifles accuracy back in the beta test days. I believe the only balance changes were to make the rifles more powerful, they still seem as innaccurate as ever. Bizarre choice in my opinion as it makes the rifle more dangerous in close combat which is not what rifle combat is about. They should have opted for more accurate rifles. I mentioned in that post about how the rifle accuracy didn’t change one iota when crouched or prone. I happen to think a rifle should be very accurate in those positions and innaccurate while standing and almost completely useless while running. The choice of an accurate but slow firing rifle would have been ideal as it counters the close range spray of SMGs, giving the choice of playing style to the player. Never mind, maybe one day…

(DerKammisar) #27

What’s with the rifle damage too? In RTCW the sniper, if he’s good and moves around, can be a very good asset because 2 shots and the person is dead. They could be counted on doing 80hp worth of damage for a body shot and instant kill for a headshot.

Now I notice shooting off the helmet then death on the second shot. And it’s taken me 4 body shots to kill a medic? Why are the rifles so wimpy now? Kinda makes me not want to snipe. :frowning:

(ComradeChilled) #28

What the heck are you people doing using the rifle in combat?
When you spawn, load a grenade into the rifle, then switch to ure pistol.

It all comes down to balance. Sure it would be cool to have realistic guns, but really, the rifle for the engineer is more of a panzerfaust, IMO. You can fire one instant-kill round, then have to wait for ure power bar. If Splash hadn’t put a rifle nade thingy on it, then yeah it should be a lot more accurate. While on the subject, wasnt the german rifle bolt action? But it can fire just as fast as the semi-auto garand (fires like a pistol, u can unload ure whole clip in less than a second if u click fast enough). And the garand can’t reload. Why do the allies have to put up with disadvantages the axis don’t have? They have it hard enough as it is, since all the maps except rail gun have allies on the offense.
Realism is overrated, though sometimes a little more realism (the panzerfaust in original RTCW, which I’m glad they toned down a bit) should be applied.

Happy Penguin forever!

And btw, i regularly kill people with 1 headshot. Don’t hit the helmet, aim lower. It’s always easier to get headshots if you don’t zoom in. Just put the bottom line on their chin area and shoot. Sniping is awesome, on the beach map, which is a turkey shoot for axis (unless morons go out the back door/onto beach or covops don’t know how to use satchel on ramp), I get most kills from sniping. I will see them spawn, the invincibility icon will disappear, and I can down people in 1 hit headshots.
It’s just not as easy as in RTCW because the models are smaller.

(SCDS_reyalP) #29

The k43 (axis rife in ET) was semi auto. The k98 (sniper rifle from RTCW) was bolt action.

The rifle nades are quite powerful. OTOH, they use charge, so if you are trying to do any other eng duties, you better not use them too much.

(Cyber-Knight) #30

the rifle has to be more crappier than the SMG in a bullet to bullet stand off cuz the rifles have an alt-attack!

if a gun grenade was put on an SMG, then yes, upgrade the rifles. But it doesn’t so it obviously needs to be weaker than the SMG to make things balanced. I sometimes wished I had a rifle grenade on me sometimes when I choose an SMG engineer, but sometimes I wish I had an SMG.

(GrumpyDog) #31

I agree totally, I can’t stand all this balance this, balance that, downward spiral. If SD is wise, they will turn away from the rules balance complaint threads or their game will forever turn to a pillar of salt ('cept if they don’t fix the bugs). You’ll run into the problems EverCrack or WC3 has; every patch will be a rules change and the forum pretties will still complain for another change. For the most part the game balance is perfect, leave it alone, or we’ll end up with something like UT2003, and nobody wants that.

Remember:
ET is not a CS type game.
ET is not a UT2003 weak butt-tagging weapons game.
ET is not as fast paced/short round/in your face/quakey as RTCW.
ET is not a DOD/all sniperbot type game.
ET is not BF1942 one shot/airplane and your dead type game.
But, ET is a sort of mix of all these(except DOD and UT2003).

MY HIPOCRACY: The only quirks are some of the design flaws in some of the maps concerning the lack of multiple initial spawn points for some sides, reduce the support guy to one airstrike/charge like in RTCW, and oh, give the SMG soldier 2 extra clips. ( :slight_smile: )

Otherwise, heed my warning.

LOL: :beer:

(TheBuilder) #32

Also remember:
When one shoots a rifle, even in a game that is not a CS type game, not a UT2003 game, etc etc, no matter what the game may be… one expects a rifle to shoot straight, especially if it’s the “rifle that won the war.”

You seem happy with the default configuration of ET. Suppose ET had had these changes made to v1.0 so that the rifles actually shot like rifles. Would you complain? In all likelihood, you wouldn’t. You’d praise ET for being what it is, and many people would say, “Oh, cool. They fixed the rifle bullet deviation issue.” Hence, no one would have an excuse to complain about this.

They could have made the rifle fire accurately, but it all comes down to this: Splash Damage made the Garand shoot the way it does because they don’t give a crap about how firearms work. And when developers do not properly address every issue in their game to strike a good compromise that will please 99% of their audience, a large portion of those people become pissed. You can bet that SD knew people were gonna be pissed about it, and you can also bet that they just didn’t give a damn. So you see, I am actually insulted by Splash Damage for their blatant “FU” gesture to everyone who cares about how weapons work. They can call it their “creative decision” and people will buy into that, thinking that it’s suddenly okay, argument finished. Those of us who know an evasive maneuver when they see one will realize that they really don’t give a damn about us, but those of us who take everything at face value will fall away and not pursue the issue anymore. SD will move on, and will ignore such debates about gameplay such as this one.

That is, unless Splash Damage would like to prove me wrong on my assumptions of them.

As for those who disagree with me… Since you can never please everybody no matter how benevolent and wise your actions may be (I am not referring to my opinions as such, please note), there will always be somebody there to disagree. But that’s okay, and there’s nothing I can do to change it. So you are entitled to your opinion. Thanks to all who post their thoughts…

(Cyber-Knight) #33

C:\Program Files\Wolfenstein - Enemy Territory\Uninstall

(TheBuilder) #34

Aw, that’s cute.
I don’t tend to do that since my custom-built system is doubtlessly entirely superior to yours with its 250GB of storage. :beer:

Besides, I might want to explore the game a little more… and if not, wait for a patch that fixes some stuff. When MoH Spearhead got patched, it got patched good… The “gewehrgranate” (k98 with attached grenade launcher) was finally properly tweaked from the demo version of the game (too powerful) and made into a useable weapon for the retail version in multiplayer. So you never know…

(Englander) #35

To be fair Builder your comments about Splash Damage are totally unjustified and wrong.First of all this game asn’t cost you a penny/cent ,so looking at it from that point of view i dont see how anyone can come out with the comments you have about SD.

Also the rifles do fire straight,try crouching when you shoot it reduces spread,also its simple pick an SMG if you feel hard done by with the rifles.
SMG have always been the weapons of choice in RTCW and since ET has been born from RTCW its a tradition thats been continued.

All in all if you feel the game lacks in certain areas at least it hasnt cost you any money to find out.Id suggest finding a game were the rifle lives up to your requirements,but the fact is that is likely to cost you money to play it.

I can only say out of the thousands of people what have downloaded ET you are the only person who as created a thread about the rifles accuracy apart from Democles,so that to me means the vast majority are fine with the way it is.

This is a game and fun must come first before reality.

(Englander) #36

I believe that the Garand as been made more accurate at close range for the reason an Engineer will be more affective,lets be fair we want our Engineers getting to the Objectives and not sitting back with their rifles killing at long range and because an Engineer will be at the front coming into close combat what good would it be having a weapon what is best at long range.The nade launcher is their also to even things up aswell.

I can only say that if SD made the rifle for Engineers an execellent long range killer ,you would start seeing Engineers acting like snipers neglecting their duties and that would make me mad.

(damocles) #37

Also the rifles do fire straight,try crouching when you shoot it reduces spread,also its simple pick an SMG if you feel hard done by with the rifles.

You really should consider playing with the rifles before making statements about how they play. The unscoped rifles DO NOT gain any accuracy bonuses at all from crouching or going prone, something which is totally unjustified in terms of balancing as SMGs do. If the rifles had the same accuracy gains from crouching that SMGs do, the lack of accuracy would not be an issue. But as mentioned above, with a fixed, unalterable degree of randomness to the rifle, and the first shot not being on target like the SMG first shot is, the rifle is a weapon based on pure luck, something a game like this should not be.

(kotkis) #38

Game fun > Realism
Some people just don’t get it (I’m not saying that TheBuilder is one of them). I don’t give a rolling lingonberry about the thing how weapons behave in real life. The only thing that matters is that the gameplay works. Ofcourse some may like the realism, thinking that you’re in the middle of the WW2, but I don’t, and neither do many many others. RtCW wasn’t realistic at all, and I hope that people respect that in ET.

(TheBuilder) #39

As for the fact that ET hasn’t cost me a cent, that doesn’t matter a bit. The most popular online shooter, Counter-Strike, is also free. No one in the CS community would put up with Valve deciding to turn the game to crap with their next patch. People complain about shortcomings of games because they feel they could be improved. Free or not, it is considered the duty of PC game developers to patch their games to fix any inadequecies.

As for my comments about SD, Splash Damage knew that its decision to ignore everyone who actually expect a weapon to have remotely similar properties to its real-life counterpart was going to incense more than a few people who actually play WWII games largely for the fact that they get to fire weapons used in that era. They knew it, and didn’t care. I believe my comments are totally justified. As I said, they could have easily implemented a better balance for the rifle that included lessening the deviation of fired bullets. …But they didn’t.

Try to look at it this way: What if they replaced the Garand sniper rifle with the rail gun model from Quake 3, and skinned it to look like a Garand? Outrageous and insulting to history and to the players, isn’t it? It’s the exact same thing that SD is doing now, just in a different form.

And Kotkis, I know exactly what you mean. “Realism� is often interpreted in two different ways, and no matter which way you end up using the word or implying the idea of the addition of realism to a game, it is met with hostility. I’ll say it right now: I don’t care for realism. I’m not asking for a “realism� element to be added to the game. What I’m asking for is typical rifle behavior that is found in all games, even those which aren’t attempting realism.

(Vengeance) #40

I prefer balance with weapons anyday over realism. I do believe realism needs to be in a game to a certain extent but 2 much realism is what ruins some games.

As for insulting history i find that hard 2 believe since this is a game and also that Splash Damage hasnt stated this is an accurate recreation of WW2.

After everything I prefer balance 2 everything else and I believe the weapons are balanced.

Balance = Fun