Respawn system and map design

(Humbugsen) #1

I played enemy territory for a really long time and there are some things that made it feel a lot more team dependent and I think those should be changed in Dirty Bomb

1. Give defenders a zone to camp/defend in.
Currently offense is the best defense, there is no real zone around the objectives, where defenders can gather and defend. Let’s take the first stage of chapel for example: the EV is really close to the attackers spawn and defenders have no real chance to defend it. The attackers can repair the EV, without controlling the area. It can easily be disabled again without controlling the area.
The EV should be placed in the defenders zone. Maps should be build to first control the area around the objective and then do the objective afterwards. This will make team compositions like 5x skyhammer/arty (to permanently disable the EV) useless. It will also stop the “lemming repair rushes” and the team is not split in those who do the objective and those who do the kills. Since this first change will make the maps more defender biased we need:

2. Multiple/selectable spawnpoints for attackers
This will prevent spawncamping and will allow more tactical decisions for attackers. I saw lots of people complaining about spawnkilling already and it’s no fun for both teams. Different spawnpoints will make this impossible and the “defender zone” will make it impractical. It should also open up more routes to approach the “defender zone” and set up crossfire etc. “Old” spawns should stay available for the option to fall back, when it’s needed.

3. Capturable spawnflags that are usable by both teams.
Good way to realize the “control area first” thing. Enemy territorys Oasis map is a good example for this. You first captured the forward spawn and then you blew up the wall. It added a true feeling of teamplay.
I also don’t like how delivering works in dirty bomb. In chapel and trainyard (for example) you basically have to spawnkill the defenders to deliver the bloody objective. I’d really prefer to steal and secure something there.

4. Remove “Space to deploy”.
Everyone should spawn at the same time, there is no reason to spawn alone. You either wait for a medic to revive you in order to fight with your team, or you wait for the next wave to respawn with your team. You shouldn’t be able to spawn whenever you want while waiting for a medic. (This is really important in my opinion and should be changed independent from the other changes I’d like to see).

All these changes would make public games feel closer to competitive games, which is what dirty bomb should aim for in my opinion. It would also lead to more balanced matches overall i think.
A map creation tool would also save the day, as long as the features above are included.
(Every ET player would love remakes of maps like goldrush, oasis, radar and I think they would fit dirty bomb better than the current ones to be honest)

All in all dirty bomb sometimes feels more like tf2 than like enemy territory and I really don’t like tf2, but I loved ET :smiley:
I know I’m asking for a lot but I think this is really needed to make stopwatch/objective mode enjoyable.
How was it in quake wars and brink(didn’t play them unfortunately, was to busy playing ET xD)?

sorry for my english, i tried to keep it short, i hope this is understandable.
How do you feel?/What do you think?

(montheponies) #2

Pretty much agree with everything, unfortunately it has been raised numerous times to no avail…

(Humbugsen) #3

:frowning:
i really hope that execution mode fits DB better
I can’t really enjoy objective/stopwatch with those maps :frowning:

(ToonBE) #4

Humbugsen, you are correct 100%. Now the devs need to realize this is top priority.

(Protekt1) #5

People have mentioned that we need something like longer immunity period while in spawn. I agree with that, although I don’t typically see people getting spawn camped except when it is already a lost match, I do think it is something that should be easier to prevent without making it unfair.

As for 3., there is a capturable spawn point on victoria, I forget what the map is called currently. I get the feeling not everyone notices it right away. I would like to see more of them in future maps. I’m not sure where they could be fit in existing maps.

I do agree that competitive and casual should have as few changes as possible.

(Humbugsen) #6

[QUOTE=Protekt1;526617]People have mentioned that we need something like longer immunity period while in spawn. I agree with that, although I don’t typically see people getting spawn camped except when it is already a lost match, I do think it is something that should be easier to prevent without making it unfair.

As for 3., there is a capturable spawn point on victoria, I forget what the map is called currently. I get the feeling not everyone notices it right away. I would like to see more of them in future maps. I’m not sure where they could be fit in existing maps.

I do agree that competitive and casual should have as few changes as possible.[/QUOTE]

yes i know this spawn, but it doesn’t help you to control the area. It just grants you faster reinforcements, it’s what a command post would’ve been in ET
longer spawn immunity would be really boring and doesn’t fix the cause of the problem

(Protekt1) #7

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;526622]yes i know this spawn, but it doesn’t help you to control the area. It just grants you faster reinforcements, it’s what a command post would’ve been in ET
longer spawn immunity would be really boring and doesn’t fix the cause of the problem[/QUOTE]

What is the cause exactly? I’ve only seen spawn camping when one team is really playing that much better than the other team. Is that even something that needs to be fixed?

Longer immunity does allow players to push from their spawn, or wait out a bit longer to get reinforcements to make a concerted push effort.

As for the capturable spawn area, I believe you are mistaken. It pushes the attacker’s spawn up to the stairs/turret area almost, and it pushes the defenders to spawn on the other side of the wall. If it effects spawn times I was not aware of that and that change must have slipped by me.

(Humbugsen) #8

[QUOTE=Protekt1;526624]What is the cause exactly? I’ve only seen spawn camping when one team is really playing that much better than the other team. Is that even something that needs to be fixed?

Longer immunity does allow players to push from their spawn, or wait out a bit longer to get reinforcements to make a concerted push effort.

As for the capturable spawn area, I believe you are mistaken. It pushes the attacker’s spawn up to the stairs/turret area almost, and it pushes the defenders to spawn on the other side of the wall. If it effects spawn times I was not aware of that and that change must have slipped by me.[/QUOTE]

it doesn’t effect spawntimes, but it has the same effect, forward spawns in ET had a whole different effect.

there is just no tactics involved in the maps, in CS for example you at least say: “we going A or B, long or short” etc
the maps don’t really allow for any tactics and I think different spawnpoints would totally solve that and spawnkilling too, so why not do it?

the current maps just feel so deathmatch oriented, i never have that feeling in ET

just imagine underground:
If attackers had a second spawnpoint, to the left or right of the building in the middle and that building was a little bit bigger/defendable. Put a spawnflag inside and this map would be sooo much more interesting and spawnkilling would be pointless.
Everyone sees that you can’t rambo in there alone, so you need some teamplay. This just encourages teamplay!!!

(Violator) #9

Agree 100% with the OP.

Chapel has probably the worst spawncamping issues - a good defending team can spawncamp a lesser attacking team on the first objective as they have defendable choke points that they really shouldn’t have access to (this has been discussed to death). The last objective is only possible to win by spawncamping the defending team (also discussed to death).

Terminal does have the forward spawn and it does change the dynamic of the objective considerably. Defense now have some high ground but its a lot harder for them to defuse. Would like to see some more of these in the other maps.

btw Terminal = Oasis, Bridge = Goldrush :wink:

(Chux) #10

Some nice points, would be nice the include the features. I feel it will just get ignored like most of the stuff the rest of us suggested. I just wish someone would at least comment on some of the things and provide some arguments as to why they think it wouldn’t work. The lack of communication sucks :confused:

(Szakalot) #11

the main advantage of forward spawns over other secondary objectives is that they are the most impactful on everybody’s gameplay.

If you don’t feel like sniping or using an MG you don’t have to bother building the ramp on chapel. You can also safely ignore one of the doors on underground, and focus your attack through the other door & roof. In the end, all other types of secondary objectives are situational: they open up the route, if you need it/want it. But if you don’t care you can safely ignore them altogether.

Forward spawns on the other hand benefit everyone in the team & punish the opponent. Capture the spawn, your whole team will be grateful. Re-cap offensive spawn, and you give your team a brief moment of piece before the attacker’s regroup.

In the end, its about allowing defense to do something else on the map rather than camp chokes. If defense has incentive to push out, it adds another layer of tactical depth to the map: ‘should we risk pushing the forward spawn, or bunker around the objective’. Same for attackers ‘do we focus on getting the spawn first, or do we rush objective’.

I’d even like forward spawns as deployables that a set of mercs can drop down, for an engy to build it up aftewards. Spawn can be recapped/hacked/blown up by the defenders to stop it from happening. Can be balanced with a cooldown (every second wave) or limited amount of players, possibilities are endless.

It really feels like the ‘focused gunfight’ approach to the maps is much too focused, and gets repetitive. Its great to have a big choke here or there that the defence can camp for a while. Look at Oasis wall, Allies spawn 3-4 seconds from it, on a faster spawntimer and it usually takes a good 1-2min before the Axis are pushed out from the Area. Once conquered by Allies, its unlikely for this area to ever be contested again due to the spawn proximity.

We need maps with highly defendable areas that can eventually be overcome and flushed out. It gives a sense of progression where, even though you only have 2min left on the clock to blow the main objective, you managed to get through one choke; and now can prepare for a counter attack.. So far, the only viable counter-attack defense for attacker’s is spawncamping.

edit:
Forward spawns help facilitate that a great deal, as in a fast-paced game like this spawntime&distance greatly influence how viable defending a particular area is. Chapel after 2nd obj is complete always has a great fight around the construction site, where few defenders camp the MG and the back routes, slowing down the opponent. However the huge difference in spawn distances makes it impossible to keep up with the relentless waves of attackers. If you had a forward spawn up at the MG that the attacker’s can recap, you could prolong the engagement, spacing out the fights in the map.

Underground manages that pretty well in the sense that the fights down the escalators slowly push the defenders further undeground, but the automatic spawn switch completely destroys the pace: why bother trying hard if you will spawn on top of the enemy in 30 seconds.

Overall such spawns could rely on the terminal forward spawn mechanic where capping the spawn affects both teams, making it a highly intense area to fight around.

in W:ET 90% of the best fights always happened around the flags.

(pHine4s) #12

I feel it will just get ignored like most of the stuff the rest of us suggested. I just wish someone would at least comment on some of the things and provide some arguments as to why they think it wouldn’t work. The lack of communication sucks :confused:

I think you are a little too hard on SD - why bothering having a beta-community at all then, if they wouldn’t listen. It’s free valuable feedback. And hey: Give then some time to work on all the stuff …

Chapel after 2nd obj is complete always has a great fight around the construction site, where few defenders camp the MG and the back routes, slowing down the opponent. However the huge difference in spawn distances makes it impossible to keep up with the relentless waves of attackers. If you had a forward spawn up at the MG that the attacker’s can recap, you could prolong the engagement, spacing out the fights in the map.

Very true, that would be nice and much more “ET-ish”.

Underground manages that pretty well in the sense that the fights down the escalators slowly push the defenders further undeground, but the automatic spawn switch completely destroys the pace: why bother trying hard if you will spawn on top of the enemy in 30 seconds.

I find the automatic switch somehow dumb, often the first wave of attackers is wiped out almost immediately if defenders are strong here as you literally spawn into the crossfire of enemy territory - any preparation or tactical considerations futile.
And then as a sudden, the second wave pushes defenders back to next escalator. No surprising teamplay events here to come, just the brute force of being there. Give us something to work on, to fight for …

in W:ET 90% of the best fights always happened around the flags.

And what fun it was. Even not so wise players understood the relevance of taking/recapping/holding these spots. Result was an abrupt self-developing strong teamplay by being forced to stick together here.
The relevance of e.g. the forward-spawn on Terminal is very secondary, in the end it’s a repetetive push to the wall, most attackers don’t even consider the existance of a forward-spawn at all or the time to take it seems to be too long regarding the game-pace.
More space between takeable spawn and barrier by extending the map-dimension could help. Sure, the time of map-segments would have to be extended as well.

(Humbugsen) #13

good additions, spawnflags and the fights there were truly awesome. do they exist in quake wars?

also like the idea of deployable spawns, but i think that would add even more tf2 feeling. I really feel like DB maps are made for tf2.
(they seem to be made to not favor the attacker nor defender, while in ET axis were favored most of the time??? that’s why there is stopwatch…)
If DB maps were a bit more ETish i would totally love this game.

(I also have the feeling that i die a lot more from behind in DB, than in other games, because of the map design. At least when i started this game. Do you feel like that too?)

(Szakalot) #14

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;526662]good additions, spawnflags and the fights there were truly awesome. do they exist in quake wars?

also like the idea of deployable spawns, but i think that would add even more tf2 feeling. I really feel like DB maps are made for tf2.
(they seem to be made to not favor the attacker nor defender, while in ET axis were favored most of the time??? that’s why there is stopwatch…)
If DB maps were a bit more ETish i would totally love this game.

(I also have the feeling that i die a lot more from behind in DB, than in other games, because of the map design. At least when i started this game. Do you feel like that too?)[/QUOTE]

there were forward spawns in quakewars, it would take 5 seconds to cap and 10 seconds to decap though. Even so, in several maps flanking the forward spawn was a very viable strategy for the defence, even on highly competitive level.

not sure about being attacked from behind except that many mercs can navigate the map super fast, and a lot of areas in the map are build around insane crossfires. In any case, many firefights end up in a merry-go-round of people killing & reviving each other.

(Amerika) #15

I like the maps mostly how they are (well, not Dome) but I wouldn’t mind seeing the spawn areas increased in size with different routes out and the ability to select where you spawn. Right now, Terminal in particular but Chapel too, is very easy to get a starting area spawn camp going. If you could select different spawn areas it would help fix this issue. I’m not against most of the other points raised either though.

(sunshinefats) #16

I can definitely agree with this. If nothing else, this is also relatively easy to implement with no big code changes or map redesigns, which makes it an ideal suggestion. Unfortunately, it’s been suggested many times already and, as of yet, nothing has been done. :frowning:

(matsy) #17

As a developer I love it when people say it is no big change or redesign because what you are asking is a pretty big addition that isn’t there right now. You also don’t know how these are tied in under the hood, so it could be an even bigger re-work.

(warbie) #18

Good post, Humbugsen. Each point you make - all of which I agree with - has been raised many times on this forum over the last few years. I actually got a strong sense of deja vu while reading it. The most basic elements that allowed RTCW and ET work as team games are not present in DB. Mercs, loadouts, all that stuff, mean little when the core gameplay is not intact. I want to set up a defence with my team and try and hold off concerted attack from the other, but the spawn times and maps don’t encourage this and it doesn’t happen. To and fro, teams colliding, battle of attrition gameplay is what made RTCW and ET. Perhaps SD want something different for DB, which is fine, but they need to understand that if they are trying to capture some of what made ET so popular that they’ve missed the ball.

(Zenity) #19

I think the automatic spawn adjustments are fine for public objective servers, but somewhat lack substance for competitive play. Perhaps there could be custom spawn rules for competitive matches (or even stopwatch in general)?

For competition I would like it to be more crisply defined when and how spawnpoints change, and perhaps have some sort of struggle over it. Even if that struggle is based on a split-second objective (like the flags in RTCW), that can add a lot of excitement and depth to competitive play.

Whatever happens though, I think that the stopwatch stage progression needs to remain linear. This is one of the best improvements over ET that SD really isn’t getting enough credit for IMO. The bane of ET was always that bigger maps weren’t feasible in competition, and that ruled out some of the more interesting maps made by Splash Damage. The progression system creates a multitude of interesting results and makes every map feasible (though not necessarily ideal) for competitive play.

I still think it’s a shame that Oasis and (unmodified) Goldrush did not work well as competitive maps in ET. Maybe it’s because I did not play RTCW much before ET, but those were always my favourite maps in terms of atmosphere, playability, and overall quality. One of my most memorable matches of ET was when we were steamrolled in a ClanBase cup match on Goldrush (unmodified, early days) to a time of 6 minutes and something. If you remember original Goldrush, you know that this was essentially game over. But we pulled ourselves together and actually managed to beat the time by just a few seconds, which was an incredible feeling.

While close games like that were much more common on the typical fast paced RTCW / modern ET competitive maps, there was still something special about doing the same on the big SD maps where quick results were exceptionally rare. Thanks to the progression system, this kind of map can work just fine in DB. A lot of the time games may simply be decided by who sets the fastest time on an earlier objective (which is fine with me), but every once in a while something truly remarkable can happen. I really appreciate that.

(Humbugsen) #20

[QUOTE=Zenity;526774]I think the automatic spawn adjustments are fine for public objective servers, but somewhat lack substance for competitive play. Perhaps there could be custom spawn rules for competitive matches (or even stopwatch in general)?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think so. It just discourages teamplay. I know it’s annoying to wait like 45 seconds sometimes, but without that teamplay can’t happen!
Why do you want to spawn alone? If they want to make a casual mode, where no teamplay is required, they should make teamdeathmatch and not objective mode. It’s just no fun to play a lemming objective mode like this…

I think casual and competitive should be EXACTLY the same, except for more communication and tactics in comp, and thats also how it was in ET. This game won’t attract the typical casual fps player, too much aimskill needed. It also won’t attract the comp. players, because no tactics involved. So who is going to play? not me for sure…

I think SD should stop copying sh!tgames, and copy a bit more of their own awesome games.