remove the god damn ****gun

(Lucindious) #1

that is all. it doesn’t belong in this game. try making a game where people actually have to aim. I’m tired of getting ****ing shotgun’d from across a map or racking a head with 6+ headshots only to be whipped on and one shot. its ignorant.

(Nail) #2

maybe try playing a game you can handle

(Mustang) #3

Got any clips of being shotgunned from across the map?

The main complaint always seemed to be they were too powerful at ultra-close-range and zero effect at short-to-mid-range.

(Melinder) #4

Well then that complaint, despite it’s current relevancy, is no longer the main one. For well over a year now, the main complaint has been their effectiveness at the middle ground of close-medium range. This has been made worse with the most recent change, which increased the range further.

(Mustang) #5

Totally agree about the OHK being completely BS, excellent clip to illustrate this point, infact this is exactly what I was meaning by my close range statement.

Guess I forgot they puffed the falloff a little, but I haven’t seen anyone getting battered from “across the map” though.

(B_Montiel) #6

[QUOTE=Melinder;568379]Well then that complaint, despite it’s current relevancy, is no longer the main one. For well over a year now, the main complaint has been their effectiveness at the middle ground of close-medium range. This has been made worse with the most recent change, which increased the range further.

https://gfycat.com/ImmaterialEnragedDutchshepherddog[/QUOTE]

?! Most people complaining about shotguns in game generally complain about 1HTK at point blank, which is indeed an issue. People complaining about mid-range 2 to 3 hits to kill a way rarer occurence. Nevertheless, the biggest issue is that they are totally unreliable no matter the range right now, and they should not be reserved to point blank fights only in my view. Melee weapons could do just as good in this field.

Anyhow, considering cycles rates and TTK on other weapons, 2 or 3 shot to kill on significant range does not sound stupid to me. But at a fair price : actual consideration of aiming. Shotguns currently reward body aiming instead of head.

So major the head multiplier to 2x like any other weapon, reduce significantly the overall damage (somewhere like 110hp all pellets on head, which will never happen, multiplier included, thus doing roughly 55 hp on body shot with all pellets), reduce the spread significantly to make them actually reliable over range. This reduces the 1HTK situations to minimal cases, and make them predictible AND rewarding over longer distances.

I know this is a hard one, but shotguns should be a real choice for most people, including high level players, where their lack of humpfff over range and unreliability puts them into uselessness. Their skill ceiling is awfully low right now, and except some people who are trapping and harassing lovers with proxy and aura, very few find them interesting.

Following the last dev video ideas, right now they’re neither really fun to play, nor fair to play against. So I guess turning them further into what they are right now (aka melee weapons) will just increase the anger on them. The last patch was a first step in the good direction to me, but to shy to really change the way they feel.

(alphabeta) #7

I totally agree with the premise of this thread. Currently shotguns are way out of sync with reality.

Shotguns should NOT be rewarding over medium-long range. That is not how shotguns function in real life. I too have been OSK by a shotgun from the generator while on the other side of trainyard . Really!?

The skill level for shotguns currently is almost zero. Make the user have to aim, and develop some skill.

(B_Montiel) #8

What do you call medium long range ?

TBH, 95% of gunfights happen on range where shotguns and smg are the weapon of choice in reality.

I won’t ask for that, but as they are right now with no longer range capability make them crippled ducks in any experienced hands. Allowing them to 2-3 shot depending on range seems to me fair. By the way, under those circumstances, any smg will still kill you way faster.

I actually never seen situations where people 1 HTK any further than melinder’s gif, and it’s exceptionnally rare. Reducing those is ok. But I’d like to see them hit reliably in the 15-25m range bracket, which is not the case right now.

As I mentioned earlier, they feel like rolling dices every time you shoot with them, and I consider that could be addressed.

(alphabeta) #9

A typical real life shotgun, depending on barrel, type of load, choke, and gauge has an effective range of at most 40 yards. They are devastating within 15-20 yards, but then have dramatic fall off of velocity and increased dispersion beyond 30-40 yards. These are not rifled slugs like SMGs.

(Nail) #10

this is shotgun at 40 meters with 00Buck same as in game

mean radius measurement.jpg584×815 24.9 KB

edit: shotgun was 18" barrel, cylinder bore

picture shows the equivalent of 9 M4 rounds

(alphabeta) #11

You are wrong. It is NOT the equivalent of 9 M4 rounds. Shotgun pellets at 40 meters are low energy, low penetrance projectiles with little shock wave transmission. M4 rounds are high energy, high speed projectiles which typically tumble upon skin penetration, increasing the depth and breadth of tissue damage and dispersion of damage. Upon entering the body high energy projectiles have an unpredictable path due to the differing densities of muscle, bones and other connective tissues.

The pattern you show is exactly why shotguns are NOT lethal at range. Most of those pellets, especially the one on the head would only penetrate the skin and not cause any damage to the vital organs below.

(Nail) #12

you want to stand where that target was ?

you obviously have no experience with real life, deer are taken all the time at 40 meters with buckshot

(alphabeta) #13

I practice emergency medicine and see gunshot wounds on a daily basis at the trauma center where I work. I served 4 years in the military. I teach a course on wound ballistics. What is your experience?

(Nail) #14

I kill things with shotguns

edit: check wikipedia, look up combat shotgun

(alphabeta) #15

I guess the animals you hunt in Canada are happy you have such a distinct lack of understanding of the physics of shooting. :rolleyes:

(Mustang) #16

Hope you two are done, else I’ll have to lock this otherwise useful thread.

(Nail) #17

sigh, here’s empirical evidence, you can keep your vague notions and poor rhetoric, if you need something explained, please ask

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/Maximum%20Effective%20Range/Buckshot.html

(B_Montiel) #18

You don’t need to prove anything further.

My point is, I don’t understand why there are many people expecting shotguns to become/stay point blank weapons. They can have a place, if given enough a precise enough pellets spread, to broaden their usage field, which close to non existent right now. And this would come with a significant overall damage reduction, which is beneficial overall, because 1 HTK on point blank are currently too cheesy to achieve.

My idea is to let player consider shotguns as a real choice against smg, not just a close range trap/harass specialist weaponry.

(Rémy Cabresin) #19

The Ahnuld shottie is already that though, think differences between the shotguns can be nice as long as they don’t have 1HK AND range, the Ahnuld is probably the best shotgun beacuse of it’s versatility and it trades off raw dmg for it(it has a bit more range but it’s less likely to 1HK) but is still considered the best shotgun. However the Rembourgh and Hollunds have pretty darn easy 1HK while having only slightly less range than Ahnuld.

I don’t like 1HK but when someone closes a gap on me(when I should’ve won a fight with an SMG already) that shotgun should get rewarded. Think most people only really have issues that the chunks of damage(and 1HK) at ranges similar to SMG is aproblem because player skill becomes a problem. Controlling pellet spread properly means that at medium range shotguns can actually be superiour to SMG because of the burst dmg they offer. It’s kinda the same problem as assault rifles vs burst rifles where burst in general(sharc being exception with similar range to br16 I think but having MUCH more recoil/spread than br16 does) ‘should’ be better at ranges but because of the burst in close quarters they are superior too in the hands of ‘better than average’ players. The problem lies in things between ‘too versatile’, it’s why burst/sniper is currently superior in DB, it’s why Thunder is horrible because his nade effects counter the counterplays to his nade affects, it’s why some mercs are just more picked than others, it’s why other games struggle with this same issue(Ana kit being so versatile in OW shes considered OP until nerfed really hard etc)

IMO either shotguns should simply have way more pellet spread across the board(if you want to keep the possibility of 1HK) or the damage should be significantly nerfed(if you want to keep range). The ‘in between’ measures just cause the same problems(most recent shotgun changes were an attempt at ‘staying in the middle’ and it pretty much changed nothing again), and it makes all shotguns feel the same. SMGs actually a pretty good character for each gun, hochfire is like a laser at range but you can really notice it does less damage and winning 1v2/1v3 is much harder than with crotzni eventho crotzni is much less accurate but superior in closer ranges. SMG9 is like the jack of all trades and isn’t really bad or good, blish is the expert weapon because its so different it takes a different style to play with it. Shotguns are just ‘the shotguns’.

Side note, why exactly do they have to be ‘on par’(considered a choice) vs SMG? We have mercs that are not great on some maps and great on others why not have this for weapons where f.e Terminal with its more CQC shotguns can be slightly more favorable but on f.e Chapel or Train SMGs are preferred. Allows for more variety in gameplay across maps aswell as allow more diversity in handling and characteristics of weapons in general too.

(B_Montiel) #20

Because they’re barely played on the high end of the player pool basically. Their 1HTK capabilities is in my view a bad trade compared to any smg. And some mercs do suffer from it, mainly proxi, and to a lesser extent Aura and Fletcher. I want to have other options than just taking blish or hochfir with those mercs, which is currently impossible with the shotgun unreliability.

For example for support and assault merc, the mix between full AR, lmgs, bursts and even dreiss start to get pretty good, and I consider shotguns still far away compared to other available choices for merc who can wield smg or shotguns.

For the rest, I totally agree with your post.