Remember the good old days .....

(chenapan) #21

I am playing right now… and you know, i think the only 1 obj at a time… is really an issue… it is utterly boring to be in the situation where an obj is obvioulsy blocked.it lead to brainless metagrind behaviour… whereas in reallity when you face a wal. usuallyu you try to get around it… change your approach or even completetely change your objective for a time… now we just cant do that… and we are doomed to go to the wall that is a big issue i think :wink:

And your CS example is saying the same actually ( 2 obj to choose from) if one is overcrowded lets sneak to the other !

Another note… when (hopefuly neveror not often ) we are facing only 1 objective then we need SIDE routes… and for the record… a side route is NOT another route to get to the same “line front” rather we should calle them BACK routes because they have a meaning and a utility if the lead to another front line and or to the back of the defense…

for instance in waterloo the pump is NOT a side route… it is a somewhat “shortcut” to go faster on the same frontline
but it doesnt offer any new dynamic to the game nor change the line front … so it is basically useless :slight_smile:

same goes for the side door on trainyard… it leads to teh same location and doesnt change the front line :confused: another useless objective and not a real SIDE

(BomBaKlaK) #22

Waiting the update …

(rookie1) #23

What I would like to see is some YTube of the BEST maps ppl think there is, at their opinions and why,from other FPS …other than from ET & co

(Glottis-3D) #24

[QUOTE=Anti;506263]Feedback from players at the time, both whilst playing on the server and from the survey run near the time (a lot of folk prefer to give feedback in private rather than on the forums where they sometimes get belittled for having an opinion which doesn’t match that of some of the more vocal posters).

I can understand what chippy is saying about it, it was certainly ‘intense’, but it was also the epitome of the meat grind people didn’t like, a space with no room for autonomy of action and little tactical scope. Yes you had to work hard together to get it done but not in a particularly interesting way, it was simply about bringing numbers and lots of AoE in one push.
[/QUOTE]

kinda sounds like PM opinions are more important than forum ones.
you could have at least post their opinions, so that we could have our arguements.

plus you could reduce Hack time, or replace the hack by c4. and add 1 route to reduce escalator grind. i remember this to be difficult, but doable. you had to wipe defenders 2-3 times to win the object. and i remember that it wasnt a fullhold area. so teams actually did manage to wipe defs several times.
so in my opinion, there was nothing unfixable.
killing potentially the best part of the map…meh

(Humate) #25

With too many routes the defence can be spread too thin and never have the chance to plug enough of the gaps

I think for stopwatch maps, this can be good as long as the defenders have the opportunity to make swift rotations.
Area22 first objective is a good example… lots of entry points that need to be defended, but its easy to rotate once 1 breaks through.Also the defenders can spot whether its a 5 man split or a 2/3 split ahead of time and this compensates for the multiple routes.

(Glottis-3D) #26

[QUOTE=krokodealer;506290]kinda sounds like PM opinions are more important than forum ones.
you could have at least post their opinions, so that we could have are arguements.
[/QUOTE]

and thats why we oftenly get frustrated, that we see mostly one discussion here, and changes do not match those discussions. is it because of PM-feedback?

why does everybody hate the vocal ones??? :slight_smile:

on a serious note. i realy feel that important questions(like, you know…killing the best parts of the map!!) need all sided discussions on the forums, not in PM. i am sure you can keep those discussions constructive, so they wont be one-sided.

(stealth6) #27

Imo the people organising & playing draft matches / comp matches have given the best feedback for DB since SD wants to make it into a competitive title. Of course you need pub for comp to work etc, but I think the gameplay should be mainly focused on comp feedback and give the pub players some fancy guns & cool skins to keep them busy.

Old topics discussing Camden / Trainyard
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/37780-Trainyard
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/38876-Reducing-the-meat-grind-feel-by-increasing-spacing
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/38784-Map-Updates
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/36876-Thread-about-too-long-maps-100
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/37506-SW-Mode-Map-Size-Reduction

I found an interesting post (cut out the interesting part)
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/40382-Continuation-of-my-feedback-post-on-nexon-forums?p=499578&viewfull=1#post499578

Sounds good to me?

Topic on fun:
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/36022-Sustaining-fun

As for hack objective on Waterloo couldn’t find much on that. London bridge I think you’re referring to the first 2 weeks of the closed alpha… People quickly tired of London Bridge and I remember everybody just leaving the server or trying to get the next map to come when it started.
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/37555-London-Bridge-Brainstorming
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/37552-LOndon-bridge-brainstorming

tl;dr There has been tonnes of feedback on the maps. To now say let’s go back to the start, because it was more “fun” seems crazy to me. I can’t say that I’m enjoying the DB experience, but I don’t think this is the problem.

(Glottis-3D) #28

there was quite a lot of thoughts about 1st Waterloo objective, and a lot of versions of it.
the latest version of this obj, is imho not better than any of the previous. All versions had drawbacks. but i liked the most the one with the window-van.
But the hack objective didnt get that much versions, so we could test. it just gone. without questions.
Right now, with 1st and last object being as they are map is not exciting.

(Glottis-3D) #29

good read. this game still need long-term planning. i remember some maps were supposed (there was a map progress bar in the loading) to be almost finished in that period. funny.

(Smooth) #30

Maps being too long was actually a hot topic back in the day: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/36876-Thread-about-too-long-maps-100

Perhaps we remember these things a bit more vividly since we read all the forum feedback, discuss the points made internally and make decisions which sometimes involve a considerable amount of work.

Yes not everyone is going to agree, but since then we’ve decided to go for a attacker-biased, 3-objectives, 15-mins guideline for our levels.

There’s still a lot of work involved getting our levels into a state we’re happy with, we know there’s much that needs improving. They are by far the biggest and most complicated parts of the game to change so unfortunately these things take time.

Please refer to the maps blog post for details of where we are and what we’re currently planning: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/41070-State-of-Play-Maps-maps-maps!

(Glottis-3D) #31

so. if maps will will be well balanced in favour of attack, will we get awesome ‘stopwatch win-rule back’ instead of cock-blocking ‘Obj-win rule’?
i mean draws can be much more exciting than any of current 1st obj wins. is it just the amount of draws that is keeping this rule?

(warbie) #32

The problem isn’t having one objective, it’s when attacking becomes a meat grind. When I think of the best objectives in RTCW and ET the thing they had in common was a clear front line or area for the defending team to set up and two or three routes of access for the attackers. I could go on about RTCW’s maps all day as they are the best examples asymmetric, objective based maps done right, but I suspect many here don’t know them so will use the tank at the double doors at the start of Gold Rush as a familiar example. There were 3 routes of access - a quick, direct, exposed and risky push through the double doors, a slightly longer, safer and more covered attack down the side corridor, or the slowest, safest path round the back and up the slope. It allowed for quick rushes when the defence were being forced to spawn, coordinated pushes when they were dug in, sneaky one man attacks from behind, or a combination. Most importantly it allowed the defending team to defend all these routes from one place - the skill being in being able to adapt and shift focus as attacks came in from the front, side and back. The defenders had a clear area to hold and were close together. London Bridge in Dirty Bomb, on the other hand, has a few examples of similar objectives and how not to do them. The first attack on the EV is all over the place - attackers can come in from multiple angles and different heights, with places to hide all over the place. There’s no clear area for the defending team to set up and the result is a Benny Hill cluster ****. The capture objective later on also doesn’t work - thin corridors and no clear, effective area to set up defence - to cover all the routes properly you need to divide up and the result is a combination of meat grinder and cluster ****.

Above all things, this is where DB fails for me. I want to know where the line that I need to defend is and to look around and see my teammates with me. Like at the start of Star Wars when the empire are cutting through the door. The anticipation, the manic hold, the frantic regrouping. RTCW is full of this. Defending the wall in Beach and the top of the fort once they’ve breached and captured the forward spawn. The sense of being pushed back from defensive position to defensive position until you’re aginst the wall and there’s no where else to go. The north east tower, bridge and tin roof on Base. The garage in Assault. The Tavern in Village. Add ET and there are examples all over the place - so why aren’t they being followed at all in DB?

(Smooth) #33

[QUOTE=krokodealer;506308]so. if maps will will be well balanced in favour of attack, will we get awesome ‘stopwatch win-rule back’ instead of cock-blocking ‘Obj-win rule’?
i mean draws can be much more exciting than any of current 1st obj wins. is it just the amount of draws that is keeping this rule?[/QUOTE]

We’ll be working on Stopwatch as a mode, and the win rules will be updated as part of that.

We want to remove ‘lucky’ or imperceptible win conditions and will work on properly implementing draws.

That being said, I do feel that if one team gets further along the primary objectives than the other team (in the same amount of time) that it’s clear they’ve done better and should win.

(Glottis-3D) #34

on paper this does seem fair.
but ingame i always feel disapointed when not being able to attack OR defend after the 1st object.
plus this system dictates much more efforts on first object, since this is the deciding object (there is literally zero chance that 1st object will be done in the same second). i always felt, that it is the last object that has to be the Culmination of the map.

Plus i remember, that in ETQW there was quite a lot of situations, where defending team let the attacker get the obj. (for example to be able to regroup for next object rather than risk it, or just much stronger team want to pracc not only the fullhold on first object)

(spookify) #35

[QUOTE=Smooth;506310]We’ll be working on Stopwatch as a mode, and the win rules will be updated as part of that.

We want to remove ‘lucky’ or imperceptible win conditions and will work on properly implementing draws.

That being said, I do feel that if one team gets further along the primary objectives than the other team (in the same amount of time) that it’s clear they’ve done better and should win.[/QUOTE]

Maps shmappa’s what about the balance for next patch?

  • Slowing down Arty’s ROF (right?)
    • What Else?

You have a very interesting problem right now in the balancing… Arty is very accurate and I can notice his crouch reward more then another other class. He also feels the most like BF or COD where if you see and Enemy and you are the first to shoot your are dead. Other classes if you are at Mid range it takes a while or you get the wtf die feeling… I think this is because we dont quite know how to handle the mercs or the guns yet. Do we RLRL OR do we crouch and rip heads? There seems to be confusion on what to do.

Phoenix Damage back to 9 (Keep Health timer the same but when he pops it, it heals everyone on the map so there is no distance confusion. Also heals 35% if shot)
Saw - Spread Recover better when rlrlr…(Medic Pack continue to heal 15% after being Shot)
Only Engys and Support Classes can plant. (Give All Support or plant classes NADES!) (Fix Nades so the act more like ET)
Revive Shield like ET so Medic’s can actually survive a revive.
Fix shotgun… (Very High fall off damage and spread)

AR Tap burst spread recovery should be very high and better RLRL recover if tapping…

Heavy MG - Very Right Crouch reward!

Cap Flag Spawns and Objective Runs on maps.

  • Fix map clipping
  • Fix Mounted MG… If I die on an MG I can no longer use that MG…

Implement Add-On sights OR just forget about Add-On’s all together! Poop or get off the pot on this one haha we need to test this and see how much it effects the game because right now we arent fully happy with hip fire and then u put in a red dot poop will hit the fan!

Lots of net coding - If the server has over 6 people in it my smoothness and everything goes to crap.

The balance tweaks I have mentioned might seem like a drastic change but I dont think so. They will bring more team work into the game!

It still feels like HS reward isnt there… I am getting raged in the body and good for them for tracking my body but it really feels noobish…

  • Correct me if I am wrong BUT you reduced the HS reward and you also made the HS hit box bigger correct?
(rookie1) #36

If a sector show on Echo lots of Dying …does it means it no good and meat grinding ?
Some of my Best enjoying (fun) place was Balcony Victoria and last objec of Camden (except for the def spawn location )
Its was not an walking your dog kind of Places.I died a lot There but it was intense and fun .

I think The Better route to go to an Final objective should be the more difficult one to take for the Attacker (Def advantage mb) .
And Defense Knows and will be waiting for you
But you can go to the obj by other strategic ways less meat grinding and more open

(Glottis-3D) #37

i wouldnt be bothered about obj-rule, if it let to rare last obj win. but now we have constant 1st obj anti-climax finish. which is very uninspiring.
so there two ways to avoid this.

  1. make 1st stage much easier to attackers, 2nd stage more difficult, and last stage even more difficult for attackers.
  2. stopwatch rule.
(BomBaKlaK) #38

[QUOTE=krokodealer;506342]i wouldnt be bothered about obj-rule, if it let to rare last obj win. but now we have constant 1st obj anti-climax finish. which is very uninspiring.
so there two ways to avoid this.

  1. make 1st stage much easier to attackers, 2nd stage more difficult, and last stage even more difficult for attackers.
  2. stopwatch rule.[/QUOTE]

yes ! we need some kind of crescendo for the obj dificulty.

(spookify) #39

Agree… This would be an interesting game and SW evolving concept…

Or how about Map Evolution? Sort of what D2 did where the maps changed?

You could look at this one of 2 ways:
#1) Physically change the maps on some random spec so different paths can be taken but the base objective is the same.
OR
#2) Random Obj types at different stages in the game.
A- You should make a Carry or Doc run or a flag cap or something.
B- Something like Golf where they move the hole placement around so its not as easy or plays different.

(rookie1) #40

Personaly I liked the long LB final objective also ,Had some epic moment there :slight_smile:
But since the map are shorten ,I still want the Last object to be THE objective ,the epic One ! The Reason of that map .
I want to pass more of my time there.

First and second should be much easier to let us having time for the Final,But still should they be fun ,dynamic…