Reistance v. Founders (Security)

[Seyu]

So there’s an incentive not to be stupid. If you withhold accountability from such attitudes, you keep the cycle intact. You shouldn’t let people have their cake and eat it

Again, my point was that why should anyone who lacked the opportunity to choose what was right for him be punished?

[tokamak]

I would have to repeat my quote to respond. Accountability is the baseline. If people can’t be held accountable for what they do with their power, then they shouldn’t have that power.

[Seyu]

I think democracy deals with the accountability of the elected rather than that of the voter. Anyway, the idea of accountability of the voter is flawed. If you continue taking away the privileges of people depending on the effectiveness of their elected representative then isn’t it eventual that you’ll end up with a clique that keeps voting for the same body? Anyway, like-minded people will get to see the consequences of their decisions only when they are in the majority, if that is the case, who exactly can reprimand them for it?

Another thing, if the Republican politicians go around professing their ‘end of the world’ bull, why is it that those who believe them are the ones fault? Isn’t verifying credentials the job of an electoral commission?

[StormforceRecon]

I don’t know which side I support more. Both sides are being manipulated by propoganda, and both sides feel they’re doing what is right, which they kinda are in both scenarios. I find myself leaning towards the Resistance though, as their cause seems a little more worthy to me.

[tokamak]

I think democracy deals with the accountability of the elected rather than that of the voter.

The public already holds the government accountable every four years.

Anyway, the idea of accountability of the voter is flawed. If you continue taking away the privileges of people depending on the effectiveness of their elected representative then isn’t it eventual that you’ll end up with a clique that keeps voting for the same body?

I didn’t say the privileges should be taken away. It’s one of both. Either you’re accountable for the privilege of voting or you shouldn’t have the privilege in the first place. My point is that the quality of the government lies with the voter, not with the government. Complaining about the guy you put in place means that you didn’t inform yourself enough, so that means it’s your fault if he doesn’t accurately represent you.

Anyway, like-minded people will get to see the consequences of their decisions only when they are in the majority, if that is the case, who exactly can reprimand them for it?

Nobody, they will suffer the consequences of their poor choice regardless, I’m only saying that it’s their own fault for being careless with their decisions. Which brings me back to the initial point: People who complain about rising food prices yet who don’t vote for a party that takes sustainable development serious are a bunch of hypocrites. In brink a few people who did take the whole thing serious initially reaped the benefits and now the rest wants a piece of the cake. That’s the little red hen analogy I draw, and that’s a way of sympathising with the founders (but again, we’re a few generations further which makes the entire thing void).

Another thing, if the Republican politicians go around professing their ‘end of the world’ bull, why is it that those who believe them are the ones fault? Isn’t verifying credentials the job of an electoral commission?

Nope verifying the credentials of a politician is the job of those who vote for the politician. If you believe the world is going to end then it’s your fault that ludicrous policies under which you suffer are being put into place.

[Jess_Alon]

[QUOTE=Seyu;282185]That sucks, especially because I do try not to be rude or come off as conceited to people I don’t know on the interwebs.
What I wrote earlier didn’t result from an indignant attitude, I was just annoyed by Etek’s frequent posts decrying other posts that weren’t about gameplay.[/QUOTE]

I sort of see where you’re coming from. As I’ve seen his posts in other threads. And I’m guilty of the same thing. But if you were to put his rep in general for this out of the picture then you do make yourself look a bit that way. I’ve really been struggling myself to contain my nerd rage until someone sufficiently provokes it WITHIN the thread so that I don’t appear to be a spurn ex-lover looking for revenge or a jerk in general. Context can kill around here.

Edit: On another note I did not see the dude being a total flamebait after the text I quoted. But I think when we criticize users we should cite the threads we are criticizing them for so everyone else reading can decide for themselves if they haven’t already seen it. In the cases of most idiots they reveal their idiocy on a grander scale shortly after you address them.

[Jess_Alon]

Press your middle mouse button when pressing QUOTE on each post and it’ll open in a new tab for each quote… copy and paste the info from the new tabs into a single reply field. BAM you now know how to do teh rocket szienze.

I HAZ NO MDLE MOUZ! OH NOOOZ! Dude I’m on a laptop. So you guys just open a tab for each quote and copy and paste everything?

I’m on a ghetto laptop that deletes crap sometimes because somewhere I’m not aware of when you touch the damn computer there’s an enter and backspace key. It’s like a weird short. So I’ll stick to multiple posts so you guys don’t end up with posts that make no sense.

[tokamak]

Rather conceited that resorting to passive agression.

[Salteh]

I HAZ NO MDLE MOUZ! OH NOOOZ! Dude I’m on a laptop.

Use the ‘Ctrl’ key instead :stroggtapir:

[LyndonL]

I HAZ NO MDLE MOUZ! OH NOOOZ! Dude I’m on a laptop. So you guys just open a tab for each quote and copy and paste everything?

Oh ok, Right click -> “Open in New Tab”. Done.
That’s how I do it. Don’t know about the others. Seems to work alright for me

EDIT: Salteh is in the know

[Herandar]

passive agression.

There are TWO G’s in ‘aggression’. GAHHHH!!![/semi-passive aggression]

On topic:

What you are all failing to recognize is that the founders were aliens, and the Resistance stole this crystal skull. That’s what the conflict is truly about.
Good thing I didn’t reveal the ending, huh?
[spoiler]Spielberg has lost it. Indiana Jones 4’s ending. Ugh.[/spoiler]

[Shadowcat]

You didn’t respond to my previous reply. According to you, it should be alright if a guy comes up with a vaccine for, say, AIDS and starts distributing it, because the government has been unable to do so.
Though I think it is possible that such a vaccine is already possessed by the Founders and they want to retain the control of it to keep the guests dependent on them for its supplies.

I will admit to the questionability to the vaccine, but only because i dont know any of the story surrounding it =P

That was just an analogy, anyway, of vaccines are really are that easy to make why is the Resistance so adamant about not handing them over?

having something that is relatively harder doesnt mean that its easy. vaccines take time and experimentation.

There is none. I could say that an individual soldier may not support genocide but he is still going to follow orders.
And it isn’t just about wanting order for the Security,

So by this logic, it is immoral for police to shoot at any gun-weilding criminals, because they are under orders to do so, even though they are doing it for the protection of the civilians. No one wants to become a cop to help, right? They’re just doing it for a paycheck.

[Seyu]

So by this logic, it is immoral for police to shoot at any gun-weilding criminals, because they are under orders to do so, even though they are doing it for the protection of the civilians. No one wants to become a cop to help, right? They’re just doing it for a paycheck.

Rather, that soldiers who commit war-crimes under orders are not immoral.
This is related http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Edit: “…having something that is relatively harder doesnt mean that its easy. vaccines take time and experimentation…”
Of course, I thought you were making the process seem easier than it was.

[StormforceRecon]

I also find myself quite suprised about the results of this poll. I assumed that there would be a ridiculous amount of votes for Resistance and only 2 or 3 for Security, but Security is actually leading by a ratio of 3:2…

[Seyu]

The public already holds the government accountable every four years.

I was referring to that.

I didn’t say the privileges should be taken away. It’s one of both. Either you’re accountable for the privilege of voting or you shouldn’t have the privilege in the first place.

Was talking about the former and the eventualities it entailed.

Nobody, they will suffer the consequences of their poor choice regardless, I’m only saying that it’s their own fault for being careless with their decisions. Which brings me back to the initial point: People who complain about rising food prices yet who don’t vote for a party that takes sustainable development serious are a bunch of hypocrites…
Nope verifying the credentials of a politician is the job of those who vote for the politician. If you believe the world is going to end then it’s your fault that ludicrous policies under which you suffer are being put into place.

Be realistic, it’s impossible for the average joe to go about uncovering scams and hidden agendas of what basically is a multi-billion dollar business.

Edit: [QUOTE=StormforceRecon;282427]I also find myself quite suprised about the results of this poll. I assumed that there would be a ridiculous amount of votes for Resistance and only 2 or 3 for Security, but Security is actually leading by a ratio of 3:2…[/QUOTE]

The poll is only about ideology. Now, if you bring fashion into the midst, that would screw up things.

[tokamak]

That’s one thing, but willingly to chase those that sell you a skewed reality, simplistic talking points and even shunning those who bring atrocities to light is another, and it’s highly toxic for the political climate.

What’s going on in the US is not a battle of rational arguments, it’s a shouting contest and the public laps it up.

It all lies with the public, that’s where the feedback loop starts, and then to absolve them from any moral and intellectual accountability is one hell of a way to keep that loop intact.

[Shadowcat]

[QUOTE=Seyu;282424]Rather that soldiers who commit war-crimes under orders are not immoral.
This is related http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Edit: “…having something that is relatively harder doesnt mean that its easy. vaccines take time and experimentation…”
Of course, I thought you were making the process seem easier than it was.[/QUOTE]

So remove the fact that they are even given orders from the equation.

You have security who are trying to stop the resistance from injuring the rest of the people on the Ark. To them, the resistance are people who tote guns, plant explosives, build dirty bombs, steal from the Ark’s limited resources.

The security can only be held accountable for their own actions, not the actions of their superiors. They are given a poor choice, stand up for an unbalanced government, or watch as armed rebellion takes over, but I fail to see any war crimes or strictly immoral activity.

Edit: I realize I am the one who brought up “orders” in the first place. It was poorly worded, and i never meant to say that orders should be followed unquestionably. Just that if an order is the right thing for a soldier to do with what he knows, then he is not acting immoral, no matter the motivations of his superior.

[Seyu]

[QUOTE=tokamak;282429]That’s one thing, but willingly to chase those that sell you a skewed reality, simplistic talking points and even shunning those who bring atrocities to light is another, and it’s highly toxic for the political climate.

It all lies with the public, that’s where the feedback loop starts, and then to absolve them from any moral and intellectual accountability is one hell of a way to keep that loop intact.[/QUOTE]

If you think that the general public knowingly and willingly allows itself to be misled, then I have to disagree with you. Political affinity is something of a religion in the States, children grow up to support whatever side their parents belong to and it is expected from one to be loyal to the wing he supports.

All the bull that the Republican party currently preaches has accumulated gradually, over a long period of time, for those blinded by their devotion to it such developments are nigh impossible to notice.

Edit:

[QUOTE=Shadowcat;282431]
The security can only be held accountable for their own actions, not the actions of their superiors. They are given a poor choice, stand up for an unbalanced government, or watch as armed rebellion takes over, [/QUOTE]
Umm… isn’t that the point I was trying to make?

but I fail to see any war crimes or strictly immoral activity.

I never implied there were any.

[tokamak]

If you think that the general public knowingly and willingly allows itself to be misled, then I have to disagree with you. Political affinity is something of a religion in the States, children grow up to support whatever side their parents belong to and it is expected from one to be loyal to the wing he supports.

They gladly takes the most appealing side rather than the most reasonable side. There’s no intellectual effort there, just a populist playing on gutfeelings. People also aren’t their parent’s drones questing your parent’s stance is part of the intellectual responsibility each person carries.

All the bull that the Republican party currently preaches has accumulated gradually, over a long period of time, for those blinded by their devotion to it such developments are nigh impossible to notice.

It’s not impossible, it’s intellectual laziness that let’s people act like sheep. Populism thrives on all parts of the political spectrum. I have more respect for someone that can reasonably justify his position opposed to mine than for someone that happens to be on my political side for no good reason.

[Seyu]

They gladly takes the most appealing side rather than the most reasonable side. There’s no intellectual effort there, just a populist playing on gutfeelings.

I think it is more about what they think to be important than about appeal. For the ignorant, invasion of the US by ‘secular, extremely fundamentalist Islamic forces’ (official wording) is much bigger problem that allocating more to education in the budget or a ‘draconian’ healthcare bill.

People also aren’t their parent’s drones questing your parent’s stance is part of the intellectual responsibility each person carries.

That depends on parenting and the education people receive.

It’s not impossible, it’s intellectual laziness that let’s people act like sheep. Populism thrives on all parts of the political spectrum. I have more respect for someone that can reasonably justify his position opposed to mine than for someone that happens to be on my political side for no good reason.

Yea, I do see your point but, again, why should society be blamed for this when it is those who sit at the top of the pyramid who are responsible?