Real concerns over Brinks Rank system

[Apples]

Oh wait, without the ball you cant score right?

[Nail]

depends on which cheerleader you mean

[Grimi]

[QUOTE=Nail;222278]depends on which cheerleader you mean

[/QUOTE]

Drum roll!

To win you must complete the objective. To complete the objective you don’t have to kill anyone, if the others are just running into a wall you should be able to run past them easily. Unless the objective is to actually kill the enemies but I doubt there will be an objective like that in Brink.

To get back to topic I will need another drum roll for Nail!

[tokamak]

And this is going to be the fifth time I say it. I am NOT downplaying the importance of being a good shooter, I only want to see all assets to a team being calculated.

[shirosae]

To win you must complete the objective.

If you’re on the attacking team: To complete the objective you need to be alive. To be alive you need to not get shot in the face by the other team.

To not get shot in the face, you either need the other team to be absent, or distracted because they consider someone else to be a necessary obstacle before they can get to you.

If you’re on the defending team: To win you need to kill, because if you don’t the other team have no reason to stop doing lemming rushes at the objective.

To complete the objective you don’t have to kill anyone

And so to complete the objective you either need to kill the other team to remove or suppress them, or have someone else kill them to take the heat off you.

if the others are just running into a wall you should be able to run past them easily.

Okay, I’ll give you this; you don’t need to kill if the other team is entirely incompetent or AFK. I don’t consider that scenario to be a good basis of the relative important of skills in an objective-based FPS.

[Szakalot]

And this is going to be the fifth time I say it. I am NOT downplaying the importance of being a good shooter, I only want to see all assets to a team being calculated.

Except that for the most part, using tools provided by the game is a matter of game knowledge, not reflex, hand-eye coordination or simply ‘fps talent’ as many might put it.

If you assembled a clan, would you rather start picking good shooters, or good tool users(or in general, other non-shooting aspects of the game)?

Id go for shooters any time, not only because most of the time they are good FPS players in general (meaning they can use all the tools as well), but because the ability to revive/etc. can be trained in EVERYBODY.

On the other hand, the ability to shoot&aim properly takes years of practice, and a lot of people achieve their maximum capacity at one point, after which they rarely get any better with time.

This reminds me of CrimsonMaster’s argument that using pliers to repair the tank is more skill-dependent than driving the tank.

There is hardly any skill involved in using the pliers.

There can be a lot of game knowledge involved, but let us not confuse the two terms.

Ill explain with an analogy: cooking.
Cooking knowledge is the ability to tell which ingredients mix well, what is the recipe, how to achieve certain meals.
Cooking skill is timing, ability to fry,bake,boil-whatever.

You can have a lot of cooking knowledge (even reading recipies on the internet can give you that), but little cooking skills. It won’t help you at all, when trying to make a delicious dish.

On the other hand, when you have a lot of cooking skill (like a professional cook), it only takes reading the recipe to be able to make the dish properly.

@Horse
This is just an excuse, i am sorry.
You can be a good reviver, but SO CAN EVERYONE ELSE.
By having more confidence in your ability to shoot, you will be surprised how much a better player, and an asset to your team you can become.
You can always learn to revive later.

[tokamak]

If you’re defending you need to prevent the other team from completing the objectives, that’s the goal, the amount of kills are important but not necessary as they’re not calculated into the final outcome. You’re not hearing ‘The attackers completed the objective, however the defenders killed so many players that they’ve won regardless’ at the end.

Sixth time, killing is important, it’s not the end goal.

[QUOTE=Szakalot;222303]If you assembled a clan, would you rather start picking good shooters, or good tool users(or in general, other non-shooting aspects of the game)?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t need to chose, I’m not arguing about which of both is most important, I’m arguing in favour of a system that takes everything into account.

Yes using pliers might not need as much skill as driving the tank, but using both effectively trumps all.

[Szakalot]

If you’re defending you need to prevent the other team from completing the objectives, that’s the goal, the amount of kills are important but not necessary as they’re not calculated into the final outcome. You’re not hearing ‘The attackers completed the objective, however the defenders killed so many players that they’ve won regardless’ at the end.

What is calculated in the final outcome then?
Or perhaps, HOW ELSE are the defenders supposed to stop the offense from completing the objective?

I don’t need to chose, I’m not arguing about which of both is most important, I’m arguing in favour of a system that takes everything into account.

Yes using pliers might not need as much skill as driving the tank, but using both effectively trumps all.

Oh but the systems takes everything into account ALREADY, in RTCW/W:ET/ETQW (and most likely in Brink as well). Of course that knowing how to use pliers will help, but if you want to draw an equation between a player that can shoot extremely well, and one that has extreme game knowledge… well then; thats where we disagree i believe.

Extreme shooting skills are more valuable, because they are more difficultto learn. They are a rarity, they are more preciuos.
Extreme gaming knowledge is simply a matter of time, and in clan settings, it usually takes a month (because everyone shares that knowledge)

To me it seems your arguing that just because the ability to revive/etc. might be at one point in the game even more important than shooting (such as when the obj is almost done, and you really need to get that covy up), that the two abilities are on the even playground.

To which every player knowing their worth, and the hardship it took them to polish their shooting skills will disagree strongly.

Yes, using tools&&tricks is important.
But shooting is MORE IMPORTANT To be a good asset to your team, shooting skills can never be bad, whereas lack of them can, and extremely.

[DarkangelUK]

Had plenty Q3 CTF games (granted more specifically CPMA), and back in the day some RtCW games where i’ve capped the flag/docs without killing a single player. Flag/Doc runners can be very helpful in traversing a map and avoiding the enemy entirely, requiring no aim or killing at all.

[tokamak]

[QUOTE=Szakalot;222306]Yes, using tools&&tricks is important.
But shooting is MORE IMPORTANT To be a good asset to your team, shooting skills can never be bad, whereas lack of them can, and extremely.[/QUOTE]

I am not disagreeing with what’s the most important aspect of the game. A good indicator doesn’t single out the most important aspect of the game, it calculates all the aspects into the game as one.

What is calculated in the final outcome then?

Ideally all contributions to winning the game, in other words, xp.

[shirosae]

Had plenty Q3 CTF games (granted more specifically CPMA), and back in the day some RtCW games where i’ve capped the flag/docs without killing a single player. Flag/Doc runners can be very helpful in traversing a map and avoiding the enemy entirely, requiring no aim or killing at all.

If Brink was going to be CTF with the kind of movement speed and trickjumping options that Q3 had, I’d probably agree that you could be effective as a pure runner without needing so much support fire.

Pure delivery objectives without a waiting time tend to be a bit like that; see Tormentor diving on Quarry, or the ATW4 and Maridia_CTF (which are almost always won by the fastest runner).

With the movement speed Brink videos have shown, and exposed objectives that take time sitting stationary to complete? Not so much.

[DarkangelUK]

I’ve done it on others as well, construct/hack and dyno objectives (especially the slipgate), plant objectives where you’re just too fast in. Hell in W:ET Fuel Dump i’d go engi and blow the fueldump before the bridge has been built. The point is, regardless of the objective, they can be done and the map won without shooting… you can’t say the same the other way round.

[Szakalot]

sneaking in applies only to random ffa deathmatch, speaking in general terms, hardly any objective can be done like that in W:ET/ETQW, when the defending team knows wth they are doing.

[Grimi]

[QUOTE=shirosae;222302]
Okay, I’ll give you this; you don’t need to kill if the other team is entirely incompetent or AFK. I don’t consider that scenario to be a good basis of the relative important of skills in an objective-based FPS.[/QUOTE]

My previous post was rubbish tbh. If you read it out of context it’s almost like I am saying you don’t even have to fire your gun to win a game. Ofcourse you won’t get past the first enemy if you don’t know how to play a FPS game. I’m always bringing up extreme scenarios, sorry!

[INF3RN0]

Just to put it into a context that we can all agree with.

1. Aim is important.
2. Being a team player is important.
3. You tend to use tools readily, and they are important.
4. As long as guns are the means of making progress, you need to be focused on killing your enemies in some manner as a means of getting to the objective or defending it.

Now considering,

1. Aim/Shooting- huge learning curve.
2. Tools- small if not non-existent learning curve.

Since most anyone can use their tools with ease, aim/shooting is usually more of the deciding factor over a win.

But,

1. Teamwork is equal if not more important to aim/shooting.

Just using tools does not mean your employing good teamwork, as well as killing people just for the sake of getting kills. I think the issue here is just mixing up “teamwork” with “tool use”. I would without a doubt always place teamwork above anything else, although shooting is the next most significant variable and can outweigh the teamwork factor if that much greater. Teamwork involves the use of a lot of different game elements, but for the most part it is focused on overpowering an opponent’s individual aim/shooting ability (find a way that will allow you to kill them).

Now in a pub you get little to no teamwork on both sides, and thus shooting/aim becomes the most significant factor in winning. It should not be, but it is. Considering there is a lack of overall teamwork and focus, it is very difficult to measure what is helpful and what is not. Most of the teamwork is done at a very individual level, as there tends to be 0 communication. So the best thing I can see happening is to just reward everything equally, not because everything that can be done is always equally important, but just because everything done can be just as worthless as the next. Again on a game app note; If Brink is going to apply limits/focus to pure killing XP in order to try and force more teamwork, I just hope that they do the same for everything else.

[tokamak]

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;222343]1. Aim/Shooting- huge learning curve.
2. Tools- small if not non-existent learning curve.
[/QUOTE]

Disagreed, in ETQW it takes lots of experience, insight and even creativity to be able to use the tools at the right time (especially in pubs as the comp guys start disabling tools).

and, eighth time. I am not argueing against shooting being the most important thing in the game. What’s most important doesn’t matter, what matters is having an indicator that includes as many skillsets in the game as possible.

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=tokamak;222344]Disagreed, in ETQW it takes lots of experience, insight and even creativity to be able to use the tools at the right time (especially in pubs as the comp guys start disabling tools).

and, eighth time. I am not argueing against shooting being the most important thing in the game. What’s most important doesn’t matter, what matters is having an indicator that includes as many skillsets in the game as possible.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but I think your just making yourself problems because you have been trying to talk about teamwork and not tool use . Also, tools are still an active and important part of comp… but some things are limited since they were originally designed for a 16v16 environment. Still I suggest you read that last part of my post.

[Lequis]

The only real way killing isn’t important to the objective is if the enemy team is so bent on getting kills that they forget to defend the objective, spawn trap you, and someone on the enemy team sneaks past to finish an objective. Pro players like to spawntrap whenever possible because it makes winning a lot easier (considering the spawning player is still unaware of his/her surroundings, however they do have to be wary that if an enemy got past the spawntrap, he/she could easily ninja plant/finish the objective and turn the tides. The spawn defenses will minimize spawn killing, so even the losing team will have some thought time before being pushed through a choke point, but considering Brink’s teams won’t be going for specific K/D ratios, I am guessing 4 out of 5 teammates will have some plan on defending the actual objective and not the spawn. Those players would most likely die near the enemy spawn and give up a spawn trap. Also, you won’t have the snipers that don’t help the team because they are 500miles away and have no sight on the objective.

Overall, your team really only need around 24+ kills (which must be coordinated or very lucky) throughout the game, ie killing the enemy team (8 people) once for each of the three objectives. The spawn wave time would handle the rest, seeing as very few teammates would be present for a coordinated rush after that.

Even the worst team could get lucky and finish an objective three times in a row. This would be even easier if none of the enemy team was actually watching the objective.

Killing is important, K/D is a foolish endeavor.

[tokamak]

Still I suggest you read that last part of my post.

I have no idea what you’re trying to say there.

Overall, your team really only need around 24+ kills (which must be coordinated or very lucky) throughout the game, ie killing the enemy team (8 people) once for each of the three objectives. The spawn wave time would handle the rest, seeing as very few teammates would be present for a coordinated rush after that.

Indeed, the value of the kills accumulates within one spawn-wave.

[Grimi]

It’s all going to be situational. In some situations shooting your way out is the right way to go, and sometimes reviving your mates to even out the numbers, and sometimes just run like heck towards the win button and press it. Ofcourse the “right” way means the easiest or most logical but other ways will work aswell. But honestly I can’t even remember when this thread went off-topic, maybe we should let the talk about the ranking system get back in the spotlight.