Random Recoil and Spread


(son!) #1

Basics

Recoil: In Dirty Bomb recoil simply changes the player’s view. Most guns in Dirty Bomb have a small horizontal drift with a larger vertical drift.

Spread: Bullets land with some variance around the crosshair at the center of the player view. Spread describes the size of the variance which also increases with burst duration.

Demonstration
SMG-9 Stationary Hipfire w/ Red Dots
SMG-9 Stationary ADS no Dots, last two sprays, unlike the rest, are compensated

Comparisons

CS:GO: CS:GO has two recoils, one for the player view and one for the gun. Uncompensated shooting similarly has vertical and horizontal drifts in the player view. Additionally for longer bursts bullets land above the crosshair, hence there is gun recoil which is not always aligned with player view recoil.
Each weapon in CS:GO has fixed recoil patterns but each bullet in a given burst does not leave at exactly the same angle, rather there is spread about the set recoil pattern calculated for each shot.

Call of Duty and BF4: Both games use player view recoil. Recoil patterns appear to not be fixed but weighted in a certain direction (see symthic.com recoil plots).


I decided to look closer at the spray patterns for some weapons after being increasingly frustrated by the random kicking around when firing in ADS. What I found for several weapons is clearly demonstrated in the two SMG-9 videos:

  • Sway could be to either direction burst to burst
  • Magnitude of vertical and horizontal sway is different burst to burst
  • A large vertical and or horizontal kick occurs on unpredictable bullet counts (in the above three hipfire sprays, the first large kick happens after the 13 bullet in spray one, 5th bullet in spray two, and the 3rd bullet in spray three)

My opinion on this is that random spread is fine as this is a fast paced realism shooter so it comes with the territory-- sometimes you sacrifice pure skill-based mechanics for aesthetics. The random recoil on the other hand needs to be way toned down but hopefully removed all together. The reason is that this is already a complex game with respect to aiming. Tracking aim in general is difficult, perhaps only surpassed in difficulty by predictive tracking aim (e.g. grenade launchers), on top of that there are strategies for tracking aim that actually depend on which merc or loadout you are using. Additionally the Merc animations can at times be clunky in side-strafing fights, where side-strafe animations are not correctly displayed and mercs instead float side-to-side which makes reading and responding to enemies unnecessarily difficult. The difficulty in both track aim mechanics and game execution turns yet more frustrating and unrewarding when your tracking aim is spoiled by the unpredictable recoil/view sway. This is also magnified by the long TTK in DB (relative to the shooters mentioned above). I’m struggling a bit to find a good reason to have BOTH random spread and random recoil in DB, so thought I’d open it up to someplace less small than my head.


(Kroad) #2

What i don’t like about the spread in this game is that while firing, your spread will only increase with movement

what i mean by that is that if you fire while standing still, you’ll be accurate. Jump and your spread will increase massively. However, when you land, it won’t decrease, even though you’re no longer jumping, feels very counterintuitive imo.

Another thing I don’t like is simply how long it takes for spread to decrease (at least with k121) when not firing and standing still. Means that if you jump around a corner, land, start firing, you’ll be almost as inaccurate as if you were firing while in midair.


(chickenNwaffles) #3

The spread in this game can just seems way too frustrating at times; sometimes your bullets go exactly where you want them to go, (most) other times they seem to never hit an enemy.

In DB, the spread seems to work like a cone – the longer you shoot for, the less accurate your gun is. This cone adds more frustration that balance to the weapons, as guns that should be more accurate (Driess AR) simply don’t feel fun to use. At longer ranges, it seem almost futile to try and hipfire someone with almost any gun, so the only other option is to ADS. The ADS in this game is clunky and takes up almost all of your screen, so either way, you seem to lose.

I would love for all of the weapons in this game to be laser beams, or at the least, have a fixed spread rather that a cone (I believe ET had fixed spread for their guns). Adding spread to guns to balance them (k121) just feels and sounds wrong. There are so many other way to balance a gun than just making it less accurate than all the others.

Some guns like the blishlock, driess AR, ak (whatever the hell it’s called in game), and k121 need to be redone. I would love to see the blish and the driess, but make the driess shot a lot slower. As for the ak, it should shoot much slower, have more recoil, and do more dmg (as it is, the m16/m4 is way better). The k121 should have more recoil and maybe a slower rof, but give it back it’s accuracy for Christ’s sake. Sorry for going on a gun balance arc, but it’s something I’ve been meaning to say.

The guns in this game, at (most) times, feel clunky, frustrating (because of bs spreads), and random. Please SD, make the guns stand apart more. The ak should feel like a fucking ak.

Another thing I have noticed, is that SD, although they love to boast about how movement plays such an important role in DB, feel the need to completely moving whilst in combat. Ex. all the recent nerfs to jumping while in combat (if you ask me, it’s easier to shoot a jumping target. Also, it would have been a much better nerf to simply limit the ability to spam jumps (bunny-jump) rather than make your accuracy worse).

I am 99% certain that your weapon’s spread is worse while strafing (except while ADS). I mean, what the hell? This is why so many guns feel crappy to use. We should be rewarded for having good movement while dueling, not punished! Increased weapon inaccuracy while moving (any state of movement) needs to GO.

The gunplay should feel good, fast paced, and skillful. Not like it is now.

Sorry for the rant xd


(strawberryJacket) #4

Hard to disagree that spread and recoil in this game are annoying. A lot of people asked for less recoil/spread (mainly spread) but in the end we have what we have. I am fine with more spread while jumping (i would add even more to be fair) mostly because jumping in this game looks derpy (jumping animations arent exactly fluid, sadly), not to even mention wall jump spamming in corridors, annoying as hell.

What im not fine with is uncontrolable recoil (good luck hitting anything with timik 47 while using iron sighs 8D) and more spread when strafing AND after leaving sprint, this is simply stupid. Players should not be punished for sprinting.

As a side note am i the only one that feel that there is more spread post last update even when you dont jump ? (was suppose to be less, but it doesnt feel this way -_-)


(Szakalot) #5

just get rid of horizontal recoil


(grimGlen) #6

Random spread and/or recoil are never good for competitive gaming. How are you supposed to see who’s better when your hits depend on random calculation? Or does it all go to peeking around corners shooting a bullet at a time and wait for the recoil to reset, like CS? Randomness in shooting games takes away all the skill that players have.

I also think that the movement and fast paced combat is what makes DB stand out from the big pool of shooter games. Also good movement is a great method to win duels where the opponent is better at aiming. Right now it is not a valid method due to the randomnes. Therefore the accuracy while moving shouldn’t be lower than while standing still imo.


(avidCow) #7

Therefore the accuracy while moving shouldn’t be lower than while standing still imo.

I agree with this part. Greater accuracy while stationary is what crouch should be for.


(watsyurdeal) #8

Agreed, I don’t like random recoil

CS GO had it right in having predictable patterns the player could compensate for.

This may mean SD would have to do some damage tweaking on the guns but I think it’s fair for better, more consistent play.

Random spread however I think is fine, it compensates for the spray and pray tactic, and encourages people to tap or burst fire, so they get more of their shots to go in the same direction rather than all over the place.


(picturesqueRequiem) #9

Should also add flinch/aimpunch when being shot here. It also makes firefights frustrating, and ADS mid-long range firefights completely pointless. It gives unnecessary extra advantage to whoever shoots first. Unnecessary because starting to do damage earlier is advantageous enough, no need to make the opponent unable to shoot back properly. And if it is just supposed to be a feedback mechanic to tell you that you are being shot, then there are much better ways to do that.


(watsyurdeal) #10

Well it’s only supposed to be noticeable against Snipers to begin with, which is fair since they should have killed you before you even got a chance to zoom in anyhow.


(Szakalot) #11

Well it’s only supposed to be noticeable against Snipers to begin with, which is fair since they should have killed you before you even got a chance to zoom in anyhow.[/quote]

it is definitely not only noticeable against snipers. Aiming down the sights like he said, is pointless if you are being shot at.


(watsyurdeal) #12

I’m pretty sure I’m just misinterpreting this, but snipers have to zoom in to land their shots, and you’re saying it’s both not noticeable and useless for them to zoom in?


(Szakalot) #13

[quote=“majesticClue;19676”][quote=“Szakalot;19636”]

it is definitely not only noticeable against snipers. Aiming down the sights like he said, is pointless if you are being shot at.
[/quote]

I’m pretty sure I’m just misinterpreting this, but snipers have to zoom in to land their shots, and you’re saying it’s both not noticeable and useless for them to zoom in?[/quote]

i wasnt at my most clear: im saying:

aimpunch is visible on all characters, esp. when aiming down the sights / scope.


(Lumi) #14

From what I could understand I agree with OP. I believe that the side kicks on the weapon are just annoying. I’m aiming down sight to try and land some nice head shots afar, while controling my recoil and then BAM there goes the weapon to the side and some shots failed the landing…

Now this is all mainly assault rifle and smg talk, but shotguns have seemed really spotty to me as well. It doesn’t make sense that at the same distance I get different results all over.

Once, as proxy I had a close quarters fight with an Aura, both with the same shotgun in loadout. I have the advantage as I have 10HP more. Then after 3 hits on aura, she’s still alive, but I die after only 2.

Now, either some pellets spread towards the head area in aura’s favor or some shots are only considered hitting partially with the pellet spread cone being random.

All in all it’s something that bugs me about DB: lack of consistency.

Sometimes I manage to one shot someone with a shotgun (no headshot)and other times I need to repeatedly shoot the person and when I die they still have 75% of their hit points left.
Same goes for proxy’s mines. Sometimes someone is looking right at the mine and nothing happens and sometimes the mine just needs a far glance to explode…

I believe the game should be made consistent all over, regardless of the methods. In the end skill only prevails when the random or luck factor is removed.


(CCP115) #15

Something like CS:GO with fixed recoil patterns would be pretty advanced, though I think having pinpoint weapons like Quake or TF2 would also not work all too well. I am overall not too sure of how this could be fixed, but in the end, I think a pinpoint Quake style of weapon would be better than a fixed recoil pattern.


(Lumi) #16

pinpoint style would not marry with the current movement induced loss of accuracy. You need at least some mechanic to reflect that.

Counter strikes method wouldn’t work either, as it roughly adds a decreased form of your movement vector while moving to the bullets, in effect making every moving shot never hitting where you were aiming with the crosshair.

I think what is needed is something that does reduce your accuracy when moving, while maintaing some of the shots on target, but that can also be predicted and isn’t random. A fixed recoil patern with an intensity factor dependent on movement could be one of the few possible solutions…


(watsyurdeal) #17

[quote=“satisfyingCove;19937”]
I think what is needed is something that does reduce your accuracy when moving, while maintaing some of the shots on target, but that can also be predicted and isn’t random. A fixed recoil patern with an intensity factor dependent on movement could be one of the few possible solutions…[/quote]

Well currently, the M4 actually does have a pattern

Shoot at a wall and you’ll notice it’ll go up and to the right every time

I think the thing that definitely needs to change is how quickly the spread takes affect, spraying shouldn’t be so easy as it is while hipfiring, we really need to encourage people to take time with their shots. That will actually increase the TTK and allow more fun fights and better consistency.


(Lumi) #18

I don’t know the weapons names by heart, especially since they’re all made up.

To be honest I think the random twitch is not present in all weapons. Some are really stable and others are horrible to control while doing continuous shots. Those weapons I unfortunately have to use multiple single shots or very small bursts.

I think all weapons should end up having a non random pattern like the M4 you mentioned.


(watsyurdeal) #19

[quote=“satisfyingCove;19980”][quote=“majesticClue;19971”]

Well currently, the M4 actually does have a pattern

[/quote]

I don’t know the weapons names by heart, especially since they’re all made up.

To be honest I think the random twitch is not present in all weapons. Some are really stable and others are horrible to control while doing continuous shots. Those weapons I unfortunately have to use multiple single shots or very small bursts.

I think all weapons should end up having a non random pattern like the M4 you mentioned.[/quote]

I think the randomness is actually the game’s code compensating for you controlling the recoil, or attempting to.

But idk, I’ll probably mess around some more when I get home tonight to see if I notice the same things on the other guns.


(hollywood) #20

Whats the command in the cfg to show the server side hitmarkers on the wall?