Rahdo's words - what happened here?

[howie]

W:ET Live please

Or better yet, RTCW Live. Then all the people to tight to pay for RTCW can experience the better game

[Chris2]

Or better yet, RTCW Live. Then all the people to tight to pay for RTCW can experience the better game

Either ET or RTCW wouldn’t be that great, no mods (proper mods) and no custom maps (the good ones).

[shirosae]

Hi, welcome to multiplatform game design when you make your game poorer for the sake of sales.

I think this is the first time I’ve ever done a ‘FTFY’ with a post that I agree with.

Really though, the arguments of broken game design have been mentioned time and again on these forums, and argued to death. Defending ‘trying something new’ is one thing, but defending that same thing being non-functional is another. Though I suppose Bethesda’s PR department is going to raise some hell if an SD employee would post “Yeah, we kinda cocked up the customisation, should’ve probably kept the classes recognisable”, but hey, what can you do.

I’m kinda teetering between agreeing with you, and thinking that Rahdo genuinely doesn’t understand what the fuss is about; his posts often suggest that he thinks we’re angry that the game isn’t ET3. That we’re angry because whilst Brink is a great game, we wanted a different great game, so we’re disappointed. That isn’t it. It’s because Brink isn’t a great game.

“Pretty damn good” is a pretty big overstatement for the PC release, I would say. Currently, it’s a decent game, probably mediocre to those focused on individual skill. However, that doesn’t mean Brink doesn’t have the potential to be a fantastic title; but a lot of us were expecting that title at launch, as should be expected. If the game has to be drastically changed in patches, one could seriously argue that the release should’ve been postponed. But that brings me back to Bethesda who’d likely want to see some money first.

I would go so far as to say “Pretty damn awful”. Brink is a game so tedious that I had to force myself to keep playing it, in the hopes that it’d suddenly make sense and start being fun, because I felt such a loyalty to SD that I really wanted to give them a chance.

But there’s no point trying to aim well, because it doesn’t matter if you can shoot straight or not. There’s no point trying to move well, because you can’t shake off the incoming lottery spread. You just buff up and spam, over and over and over. The parts in Brink have so little relation to each other.

I’ve found myself daydreaming whilst playing plenty of other games before, but I never expected to be doing it in something from SD.

It’s like a director I love has made a film, and when I go to see it, I notice that there’s something wrong. There are people talking, but the dialogue from each character doesn’t relate to anyone else, and I quickly realise that there isn’t a story here, it’s just a bunch of stuff presented like a film, but lacking any sort of coherence. I can force myself to sit through it, but by no means is this is a ‘film’. In the same way, I can’t even play Brink like a game. It’s like a shallow impression of a game, without anything underneath. I can force myself to play it, but I inevitably start making shopping lists and thinking about other stuff and suchlike when doing so, and not even being hindered because of it.

The worst part is that I can see that the game is almost there. Make the guns shoot straight, bump the speed up a bit, rethink the bodytypes, dial down the ‘immersion’ cutscenes and stuff, tweak the movement to turn trickjumping back on, release an SDK, and you have the making of an amazing game that will be played for years and years. Except that this isn’t going to happen, because the money isn’t there. And Rahdo thinks that going this route has gotten them success? This is heartbreaking.

So okay, maybe SD just made a console shooter? They needed the money, and even though they said right at the start that they weren’t going for the shiny console bauble, it turns out they did. So they ‘made compromises’, and it got them money, and therefore the compromises are justified.

Did those compromises really get them sales? The retention rate on consoles is better than PC, but as I understand it’s still really bad, if the complaints from people about not being able to find a game is anything to go by. If the choices SD made in Brink are what got them the sales, why did almost everyone who bought it stop playing?

Isn’t it more likely that the console players bought it as a result of the massive marketing campaign, the PC players bought it because SD made WET and it was looking like Brink could be a worthy successor from what they were saying during development, and it turns out the game disappointed both groups? The console players couldn’t deal with the lack of stuff pretty much every consolefps has, lobbies and whatever, and they couldn’t deal with SD’s trademark lack of polish. The PC players got a console fps.

I can’t see how it’s possible to believe that the dodgy stuff in Brink got them the sales, unless Rahdo has access to some info the rest of us don’t. I know there’s a load of stuff he can’t tell us, so it’s possible, I guess.

What worries me most here is that if that’s the lesson SD has learned - 'dumb your game down, get sales -, then what happens next game? SD’s reputation among the console players in general seems to be awful. You can’t look at a video of the game on youtube or a review of the game anywhere without a bunch of people slagging it, and I refuse to believe that there’s a group of five PC guys going about pretending to be console gamers raging on every outlet available. The PC guys are, well… I mean if SD can’t see what went wrong, or can’t demonstrate that they see what went wrong for business reasons, then it’s going to be tough to get the buzz that Brink had from PC players again with any new project. The last thing SD needs is for PC players to look at their in-development games with the same disinterest they would any other terribad console port.

If the marketing and reputation are what got SD the sales, then both have been pretty soured by Brink. I think maybe SD have painted themselves into a corner here.

[QUOTE=Verticae;372885]As I’ve mentioned numerous times before: If this level of involvement from you is any sign of what Splash Damage will do in the future, I’ve got pretty good hopes. Although I notice the defensive stance with a lot of SD’s posts, I can’t really blame any of you. Sadly, a lot of people with valid points lack the ability to actually have a discussion.

Enjoy your weekend. :)[/QUOTE]

I feel terrible about the whole thing. I’m kinda torn between the desire to keep hammering away to try to help SD in time for their next project, and the desire to give them a break from the unrelenting horror.

What happens if they make another game like Brink, and it doesn’t sell? Do they have the resources to survive that? I can accept that I’m never going to enjoy Brink, but I really don’t want to see SD going under.

[Crytiqal]

I can accept that I’m never going to enjoy Brink, but I really don’t want to see SD going under.

I think a lot of the PC players (who’ve been with SD since long) feel the same way, including me

[Chris2]

Stuffs

Hater!

Seriously though, well said.

[St_NickelStew]

I’m kinda teetering between agreeing with you, and thinking that Rahdo genuinely doesn’t understand what the fuss is about; his posts often suggest that he thinks we’re angry that the game isn’t ET3. That we’re angry because whilst Brink is a great game, we wanted a different great game, so we’re disappointed. That isn’t it. It’s because Brink isn’t a great game.

This last statement clearly represents your opinion, but let us not confuse that with a statement of fact. “The sun is hot” – that is a statement of fact. “It’s because Brink isn’t a great game” – that is simply your opinion.

I would agree that those who are unhappy with the game seem to be unhappy because they/you wanted a different game. I didn’t have such expectations, so I rather like what I got. After games in the Battlefield series, Brink is my second-favorite FPS. So while SD seem to have lost some fans with the release of Brink, I think they are gaining new fans at the same time. Hopefully quite a large number of them, so that the next game they release does even better. I, like you, want SD to ultimately be successful as a studio.

[shirosae]

Thanks. I do really appreciate the kind words and rate-ups and stuff (that you’ve been giving me for months, I have been noticing), because I do genuinely feel awful when I make these kinds of posts.

I keep getting this impulse to go into Brink, and start changing stuff, testing it, so I can go back to SD and say “Look, this thing is rubbish, so I’ve done this, this, and this, for these reasons, and I’ve noticed these good things come out of it, so I think maybe you should try some of these ideas because they seem to be working”. Except I can’t get into anything, so I feel like a huge fraud making suggestions that I haven’t tried out myself first.

This last statement clearly represents your opinion, but let us not confuse that with a statement of fact. “The sun is hot” – that is a statement of fact. “It’s because Brink isn’t a great game” – that is simply your opinion.

It is simply your opinion that that is simply my opinion. That’s a bit facetious, I know , but it serves to make a point: something being someone’s opinion doesn’t make it incorrect.

There’s 40 pages of why Brink isn’t a great game here. If you want to argue that it is, there’s plenty for you to argue with without pulling something so cheap.

I would agree that those who are unhappy with the game seem to be unhappy because they/you wanted a different game.

Well okay. You’re wrong, but you’re entitled to whatever belief you like.

I didn’t have such expectations, so I rather like what I got.

My expectation was that Brink was going to be a disaster, because I’ve been following the game through development. That’s exactly what I got. It’s a game that 99+% of people who bought it on PC no longer play, which is about as disastrous as disastrous gets without SD towers being hit by a meteor impact.

I didn’t have this expectation that Brink would be some other game that you seem to think I had. I hoped I would find it fun, in spite of my expectations. I was wrong.

After games in the Battlefield series, Brink is my second-favorite FPS. So while SD seem to have lost some fans with the release of Brink, I think they are gaining new fans at the same time. Hopefully quite a large number of them, so that the next game they release does even better. I, like you, want SD to ultimately be successful as a studio.

A quarter of a million people bought the game on PC. How many still play? 2000, maybe? These numbers are not good.

[Verticae]

This last statement clearly represents your opinion, but let us not confuse that with a statement of fact. “The sun is hot” – that is a statement of fact. “It’s because Brink isn’t a great game” – that is simply your opinion.

So unpolished, unbalanced, low-skill games are ‘great’? Sorry, but there’s simply no way to see that as an opinion. Next to that, only 2% of customers on PC are still playing the game, that’s a tad bit less than a ‘great game’ typically has.

I would agree that those who are unhappy with the game seem to be unhappy because they/you wanted a different game. I didn’t have such expectations, so I rather like what I got. After games in the Battlefield series, Brink is my second-favorite FPS.

So because you like it, other people can’t dislike it based solely on what it is? That’s pretty backwards.

So while SD seem to have lost some fans with the release of Brink, I think they are gaining new fans at the same time. Hopefully quite a large number of them, so that the next game they release does even better. I, like you, want SD to ultimately be successful as a studio.

There’s more players in ET:QW than in Brink at pretty much any given moment right now. If they’re gaining new fans, it’s certainly less than they’re losing.

shirosae, woah. Nice.

[H0RSE]

So unpolished, unbalanced, low-skill games are ‘great’? Sorry, but there’s simply no way to see that as an opinion. Next to that, only 2% of customers on PC are still playing the game, that’s a tad bit less than a ‘great game’ typically has.

You’re kind of missing the point. Yes, Brink has it’s problems, but I think what Nickel is saying is that despite all its flaws, there are people who still think it is a great game - they don’t let the games shortcomings ruin it for them. Like he said, it’s an opinion, or maybe more accurate, a preference.

So because you like it, other people can’t dislike it based solely on what it is? That’s pretty backwards.

He never stated that nobody is allowed to dislike the game. He simply listed his opinions on why he thinks (a good portion of) others do not like the game, and then said that Brink is one of his favorite FPS’s. Never did he drop the hammer and say “You can’t hate the game, because I think it’s good!”

There’s more players in ET:QW than in Brink at pretty much any given moment right now. If they’re gaining new fans, it’s certainly less than they’re losing.

You are only accounting for PC. Nickel, and others, (probably most of the players) play on console.

[St_NickelStew]

[QUOTE=Verticae;373677]So unpolished, unbalanced, low-skill games are ‘great’? Sorry, but there’s simply no way to see that as an opinion. Next to that, only 2% of customers on PC are still playing the game, that’s a tad bit less than a ‘great game’ typically has.
[/QUOTE]

Unpolished, unbalanced, low-skill – that is your opinion. You are welcome to hold it, nor am I trying to change your opinion. And nowhere did I say the game is “great”. That the population of PC players currently playing the game is low – that is a statement of fact.

So because you like it, other people can’t dislike it based solely on what it is? That’s pretty backwards.

I didn’t say that either. You are welcome to dislike it. But you are not the absolute evaluator of what is “good” and/or “bad” in video games. Your opinion is simply your opinion – which was the only point of my earlier post.

There’s more players in ET:QW than in Brink at pretty much any given moment right now. If they’re gaining new fans, it’s certainly less than they’re losing.

Do not forget that this game is being sold on other platforms besides PC. Brink was the 3rd best-selling game on 360 in the UK for the week of Aug. 20 (I posted a link somewhere in this forum yesterday). As of right now, the game is still gaining new fans. I played last night with a friend who rented Brink when it released and just purchased it in the past week.

[DarkangelUK]

I think console has been afforded the fact that we can’t see what the player count is, so it’s very easy to whimsically say “oh yeah it’s still popular, there’s new players joining all the time” when really no one knows this. If you’re at a point where you can recognize new players instantly from their name, then that’s a sign there aren’t that many players at all.

[St_NickelStew]

Well okay. You’re wrong, but you’re entitled to whatever belief you like.

Jeepers, thanks.

[QUOTE=shirosae;373675]
My expectation was that Brink was going to be a disaster, because I’ve been following the game through development. That’s exactly what I got. It’s a game that 99+% of people who bought it on PC no longer play, which is about as disastrous as disastrous gets without SD towers being hit by a meteor impact.[/QUOTE]

Well, it is a good thing for people who genuinely want SD to succeed as a company that they chose to also sell Brink on consoles … it still seems to be doing fairly well there. Hopefully their next game will do even better.

[St_NickelStew]

I think console has been afforded the fact that we can’t see what the player count is, so it’s very easy to whimsically say “oh yeah it’s still popular, there’s new players joining all the time” when really no one knows this. If you’re at a point where you can recognize new players instantly from their name, then that’s a sign there aren’t that many players at all.

Very true statement. We don’t have access to this information, but SD does. Still, being in the top 3 in UK sales on 360 for the month ending August 20 should mean at least a little bit of something.

[Verticae]

Unpolished, unbalanced, low-skill – that is your opinion. You are welcome to hold it, nor am I trying to change your opinion. And nowhere did I say the game is “great”. That the population of PC players currently playing the game is low – that is a statement of fact.

Actually, ‘unpolished, unbalanced and low-skill’ isn’t merely an opinion I hold. The unpolished part refers to a lot of things, but a few glaringly obvious ones include that ATI users still have loads of issues, quite a few people can’t play online, there’s no first person spectating and no demo recording. The unbalance can be found quite simply, just boot up a game of Container City with equally skilled teams and enjoy sitting in your spawn until the time runs out. The low-skill part I’ve already discussed in another thread, but when the highest level of players in Brink (namely the ESL 15k finalists) can agree that the game is flawed and made for unskilled players, I think there’s something to think very hard about.

As you can see, my ‘opinion’ is derived from a huge amount of factors, but it adds up to a game that isn’t great. It’s imperative that the developers at Splash Damage understand this, lest they make the same mistake again, because I find it hard to believe the community will accept the same excuses next time.

I didn’t say that either. You are welcome to dislike it. But you are not the absolute evaluator of what is “good” and/or “bad” in video games. Your opinion is simply your opinion – which was the only point of my earlier post.

My point might’ve missed here. You’re saying that the people who dislike the game, do so because they had different expectations. I think a polished, well-working game is a very reasonable expectation; that’s all I ever wanted from Brink. I, and quite a few like me, dislike Brink for what it is, not for what I wanted it to be.

Do not forget that this game is being sold on other platforms besides PC. Brink was the 3rd best-selling game on 360 in the UK for the week of Aug. 20 (I posted a link somewhere in this forum yesterday). As of right now, the game is still gaining new fans. I played last night with a friend who rented Brink when it released and just purchased it in the past week.

You realise that of those sales, a fraction still plays it, right? The playercount might surely be higher than on PC (then again, we have better alternatives to turn to), but from what I can see, the numbers are low compared to the total amount of sales. I also think it’s important to emphasise that Splash Damage’s fans, before brink, were only PC players. Sure, quite a few of us also own consoles, but SD’s titles were PC-only up to that point. That’s why I think it’s a very strange move to leave them in the dark like this.

[DarkangelUK]

Wait… you need to like to the game to want them to succeed? What’s this mindset that ‘fans’ have where if you don’t like the game, you automatically don’t like SD as well? You’re a fan of 1 SD game and that all of a sudden means you’re a more genuine fan than those who have been here for years, making content, organizing games, doing stuff for the community? How did that happen?

[shirosae]

Unpolished, unbalanced, low-skill – that is your opinion.

It’s not really, though, is it?

Unpolished: Entire maps without sound, crash bugs on ATI48xx cards with the huge mesh overlays.
Unbalanced: Massive repeated full holds, light with SMG able to pwn heavies in every instance.
Low-skill: Massive lottery spread, nerfed evasion.

You’re not going to get very far if you keep trying to dismiss stuff by claiming that it’s just an opinion.

But you are not the absolute evaluator of what is “good” and/or “bad” in video games. Your opinion is simply your opinion – which was the only point of my earlier post.

The original comment was that Rahdo believed that we didn’t like Brink because it was the wrong kind of great game. I argued that it was rather than we didn’t consider Brink to be a great game at all. If those are the term, then it’s plainly obvious that we’re talking about the opinion of the people who aren’t happy with Brink.

There are two possible ways to interpret the “that’s only an opinion”.

1. “It is only your opinion that you don’t like Brink.” Nonsensical.

2. “It is only your opinion that Brink is not a great game.” True, and irrelevant. We’re talking about why people don’t like Brink. Of course whether or not they like Brink is a subjective opinion based on the objective nature of Brink and not an objective fact based on the objective nature of Brink. I didn’t say Brink was unlikeable, I said they didn’t like it.

Do not forget that this game is being sold on other platforms besides PC. Brink was the 3rd best-selling game on 360 in the UK for the week of Aug. 20 (I posted a link somewhere in this forum yesterday). As of right now, the game is still gaining new fans. I played last night with a friend who rented Brink when it released and just purchased it in the past week.

Note: I could say “That is simply your opinion” and dismiss this whole paragraph. See how that wouldn’t address anything, though?

Serious answer:
Sales figures aren’t really that different across PC either. 250,000 copies sold isn’t that bad, really. It was pretty high up on the Steam charts on release too. The issue isn’t sales, it’s player retention. How many people are still playing the game, these months after release? On PC it’s not a pretty picture; pretty much everyone who bought the game has given up on it.

Do you have figures for how many people are playing Brink on consoles right now? If what you’re trying to say is that Brink is a successful console game, then it strikes me that the number of people still playing it on consoles right now would be the litmus test to use. If you don’t, then I don’t know what metric you’re using to determine Brink’s success.

[Verticae]

For the record, the reason this thread has mainly been focused on PC, is because I started the discussion with Rahdo’s quotes from crossfire. Crossfire is a website dedicated to competitive gaming, and as such, is PC-only. Please don’t think I’m trying to bash consoles by largely excluding them from my comments.

[wolfnemesis75]

one of the double-edged swords with Brink in terms of matchmaking is that it first looks to get you in a match with a friend or puts you in your own room or a random match if there’s room. In that order. So the odds are that you’re going to see the same faces over and over, because its designed this way. Unfortunately, the down side is that you can feel that nobody is playing. It is impossible to literally know how many people are playing no matter what even the first week the game was out! other than the lag.

That’s the double edged sword of matchmaking with bots that looks to get you playing in the least amount of time possible. Instead, Brink could’ve been setup with matchmaking so that first it looks to put you in a match already in progress, then a match with your friend, then if no match in the entire world has an open, your own room with bots.

Epic games tried to do this with Gears of War 2 and it totally was a 100% fail because you end up with all kinds of region problems and ping issues. I am not saying that Brink even has tons of people anymore. My point is, its impossible to tell either way! And yes, there may not be many people playing, but last night me and Sin and some other forum members were playing and we started with four and it took a while for people to join and after a couple matches, we had a full squad on our side against bots. Nobody else in the world is playing Brink? That’s just impossible.

So, the matchmaking is NOT dropping people into the matches first, it is looking for friends, then empty rooms, THEN searching for open rooms last. This adds to the feel that nobody is playing. Or maybe nobody IS playing. But how can me and Sin and a couple other people be the ONLY ones playing the game? In the entire world? That’s just impossible.

[Spendlove]

The fact DLC has not even been started yet and that contractually it’s up to Bethseda is very, very worrying.

[Verticae]

wolf, enter key plz