I cant really detect any differance either in this tournament… It is defintly not fair and how does Seeding work??? I mean sure there are a few people I play I never beat or beat less does that make me a seed 3 where 1 is best???
RAD Around The World CUP Analysis
Jerry-Rigs
(Jerry-Rigs)
#62
I believe so, but just to be clear:
There are no draws in bracket play. A match is best of 3 maps.
There are no draws in a single map.
There is no time or turn limits in group or bracket play.
Jerry-Rigs
(Jerry-Rigs)
#63
If I read it right…
Seeding is based on the results from the previous tourney. Sandman out scored 11 of 18 other players to get to the bracket and won one round there as well. Since I didn’t play in the previous tourney, I would be a bottom seed. Sandman would be seeded (well) above me. I don’t know where I (a new tourney player) would be seeded against those who played but didn’t score any group round points.
Ciakgb
(Ciakgb)
#64
I still think the odd numbers are arbitrary, as laid out, someone would have a huge advantage every time. Isn’t there a way you could conceive using the limitations I don’t know about you operate under, to have it be balanced where no one had the first move advantage? That is really been the jist of my comments, is that really hasn’t been factored in to past tourneys.
I don’t know it would be hard enough to beat SuperNge say, but if he started with two games to your one with first move, do you really have a chance? Its a lot of advantage to trust to random generation.
Don’t mean to be hypercritical, I just feel now is the time to do it and not in the heat of battle.
Ciakgb
(Ciakgb)
#65
And just to scholarly up dis 'ear scucion, here are some interesting thoughts from Wiki:
The first-move advantage in chess is the inherent advantage of the player (White) who makes the first move in chess. Chess players and theorists generally agree that White begins the game with some advantage. Since 1851, compiled statistics support this view; White consistently wins slightly more often than Black, usually scoring between 52 and 56 percent. White’s winning percentage[1] is about the same for tournament games between humans and games between computers. However, White’s advantage is less significant in rapid games or novice games.
Chess players and theoreticians have long debated whether, given perfect play by both sides, the game should end in a win for White, or a draw. Since approximately 1889, when World Champion Wilhelm Steinitz addressed this issue, the overwhelming consensus has been that a perfectly played game would end in a draw. However, a few notable players have argued that White’s advantage may be sufficient to force a win: Weaver Adams and Vsevolod Rauzer claimed that White is winning after the first move 1.e4, while Hans Berliner argued that 1.d4 may win for White. Computers may eventually resolve this debate by determining the correct outcome in a perfectly played game, as they have for checkers.
Some players, including World Champions such as José Raúl Capablanca, Emanuel Lasker, and Bobby Fischer, have expressed fears of a “draw death” as chess becomes more deeply analyzed. To alleviate this danger, Capablanca and Fischer both proposed chess variants to renew interest in the game, while Lasker suggested changing how draws and stalemate are scored.
Since 1988, chess theorists have challenged previously well-established views about White’s advantage. Grandmaster (GM) András Adorján wrote a series of books on the theme that “Black is OK!”, arguing that the general perception that White has an advantage is founded more in psychology than reality. GM Mihai Suba and others contend that sometimes White’s initiative disappears for no apparent reason as a game progresses. The prevalent style of play for Black today is to seek dynamic, unbalanced positions with active counterplay, rather than merely trying to equalize.
Modern writers also argue that Black has certain countervailing advantages. The consensus that White should try to win can be a psychological burden for the White player, who sometimes loses by trying too hard to win. Moreover, according to game theory, playing second may be advantageous because White has to reveal his hand first. Some openings are thus considered good for Black but less so for White, because White’s extra tempo allows Black to adjust in advance to the opponent’s plans. Some symmetrical openings (i.e. those where both players make the same moves) can also lead to situations where moving first is a disadvantage, either for psychological or objective reasons.
Ciakgb
(Ciakgb)
#66
The more I think about it, I appreciate Sandman’s comment, is this tourney a test of skill or fun? If its skill, it could be made much more fair and compelling. If its for fun, there are a lot of ways to make this whole thing much more enjoyable. I suppose we as a community we have to decide for 1) serious 2) fun 3) two events that meet each goal or 4) one magic event that is both fun and serious. of course you can blow #4 and end up with dull and frivolous…
g00n
(g00n)
#67
I like the idea CIAKGB is doing in tourney to death of choosing a squad that you use for whole of tournament, so challenging skill more for the map you on than setting up squad for type of map.
Im not in favour of expansion maps due to lack of owning them (but do enjoy playing on them with newbie feelers) 4-5 maps could be chosen and randomly selected by admin for each game?
If it is a 26 pointer it will stop younger leveled players playing unless they bought more toons/weapons. The only thing lower levels will be limited are Capt abilities (not including experience
I never like the ladder system it really depends on who you go up against. I prefer pool play and you have a chance of playing a number of players which for inexperensed players will help them than bow out first game.
Point wise:
Ellimination= 4pts to winner 0 points to loser
Defeat= 3 points for winner 1 point to loser
Draw= 2 points each (though I find this very rare so much I never have experienced it)
Bonus point for anyone who has full squad or victory under 5 turns-this will give credit to skill. So if you lose to a take and hold but opponant dosnt kill you you get 2 points instead of 1
Going inactive in a game is crucial or someone decides to pull out. So making a commitment is very important.
Ciakgb
(Ciakgb)
#68
My fix for the expan maps Goon, (besides buying them already! they are fairly cheap and fun) is that if that situation comes up in pairing, if one of you has the map, they will challenge you and you will use the rematch button to counter challenge. If neither of you has the map or your opponent is unwilling to do that, I will simply pick a map you have.
As we play both sides, map selection shouldn’t be as relevant as some tourneys. Besides, I’m sure people are itching to have a serious battle on construction say:)
I would love to have people simply use the random map option, but I worry that people might mistrust eachother too much (“is this really random?”) so I’m happy to literally put the maps in a hat and make random drawings.
Also rather than have one map for the whole quad (six games on one map is a little much), I’ll be assigning a different map for each pair of players. For example player 2 and 3 will play on Suburbs. Player 1 and 3 will on Beach, etc.
Sound good?
Ciakgb
(Ciakgb)
#69
If things work out, we could do a newbie tourney that just ran on 14 points and standard maps. It would be a little hard to get the word out because chances are they haven’t made there way to the forums yet.
Now if Splash used its in game messaging to promote some events, you could really see some massive tourneys in the future.
Paul
(Paul)
#70
What is not fair exactly?
[QUOTE=Jerry-Rigs;471477]I believe so, but just to be clear:
There are no draws in bracket play. A match is best of 3 maps.
There are no draws in a single map.
There is no time or turn limits in group or bracket play.[/QUOTE]
Correct, about the time limit: need to add that. I suggest we should maximize a response in a turn in 48 hours?
Jerry-Rigs
(Jerry-Rigs)
#71
[QUOTE=Paul;471570]
Correct, about the time limit: need to add that. I suggest we should maximize a response in a turn in 48 hours?[/QUOTE]
I was referring to no limit on the number of turns in a single game (map). When a deadlock situation occurs where neither player can advance for fear of losing and there is no option for a draw, there is a big incentive for “not losing” by going dormant and never moving. With no turn limits, this situation can stop a tourney.
Also, what happened to nested quotes? Is it all manual now? Bad.
Paul
(Paul)
#72
[QUOTE=Jerry-Rigs;471640]I was referring to no limit on the number of turns in a single game (map). When a deadlock situation occurs where neither player can advance for fear of losing and there is no option for a draw, there is a big incentive for “not losing” by going dormant and never moving. With no turn limits, this situation can stop a tourney.
Also, what happened to nested quotes? Is it all manual now? Bad.[/QUOTE]
Good question, had looked over that. Have you got any suggestions to solve this? I think we at least need to make a rule that if both parties decide on a draw on a particular map - they need to pick another one to play to come to a winner. What’s your input on this?
Jerry-Rigs
(Jerry-Rigs)
#74
Ha! I have no fair solution!
I’m not a chess player. My games rarely go to 20 turns and I never deadlock because I’m somewhat daring (OK, reckless). Ask the guys who deadlock what to do.
If forced to give a solution, I suggest that if a game (map) goes beyond 35 (pick a number) turns, both players lose the map. In pool play, there is no replay and the winner of the other game gets the points. In bracket play, if the other games of the match are split, a single replay is allowed. If that replay goes 15 turns, both players are eliminated from the bracket and the mostly recently eliminated and highest seeded player advances in their place. Yes, I am draconian.
SuperNge
(SuperNge)
#75
Congratulations to El-co and Ciakgb!
Thank you Paul to setup and running everything!
With your next Cup, i hope i can come and join it. That what im waiting for long time 
Only my problem is my time so limit now, so i just wonder when it start. Even i have vacation on 11-16 in Oct.
I hope it can start after 16 Oct (impossible). Just my hopeless dont worry.
With the rule, i think after group we’ll have “Seeds”. Because in the group we play each other 2 match so no need to have seed, so after that we can use this for the match with 3 map. That is my idea.
Best regards.
SuperNge
(SuperNge)
#76
If we still have seed in the match with 3 map, i’ll let everybody take 2 go first, i just take 1. So everybody, dont worry much about it.
Paul
(Paul)
#77
