Questions about your thoughts on the "free to play" model.

[badjasman]

Hi,

It might under NDA for now, but I am wondering why the clear success of wolf:ET couldn’t be translated into an profitable game while steering clear from the free to play model. In particular my nostalgic mind is in serious doubt whether or not to support your game by introducing my friends to it or buying a 30$ or 60$ pack.

I think if you could use ECHO on all gamers out there, you’ll find that hardcore gamers would rather pay 60$ plus DLC cost for a complete game, than getting the exact game for free, only to pay for certain unlocks (even if the total price is less!). Yes, in eastern countries this model is much more accepted and profitable, but you don’t seem to target those specific countries. This is backed up by this article: http://tinyurl.com/pbtmlry, by IGN

Basically, you are right on the money making part, as most money in the game business is earned by free to play modeled games.
However, this will effect how players see the Splash Damage brand as an trustworthy game developer. Naturally, if the game’s focus on “skill” quickly shifts to “pay to win”, you will earn big bucks, but the companies name will be spoiled.
Also, if you let the game more gradually focus on money based game experience, you’ll profit even more, with far less people being aware that they are actively supporting a money farm. In the end you could always use the additional money for some positive PR techniques right?

I sincerely hope your intentions are and remain pure, and that the mistake of switching to this business model can be corrected and transformed into a positive thing. Maybe you could actually prove to me and others that free to play is an effective way to battle piracy while still boosting the monetary potential of games but most importantly; without limiting the less fortunate!

You should know that while I vomit on the free to play concept, I am open for discussion about its positive aspects and well aware that it is a logical development stimulated by extensive piracy, new technology and altered market possibilities.

Also my native language isn’t English but Dutch, so please excuse any mistakes concerning spelling etc.

Greetings from Holland

P.S. - this message may have been interpreted as very formal, but that’s mainly due to language difficulties.
Here is a Tapirus indicus to make up for being a boring and complaining ass: :stroggtapir:

Lastly, if you are hindered by NDA, or otherwise refrain from focusing on specific questions, I want to ask you as a person, what is your thought on the use of “free to play” in serious games (with serious, I mean to exclude farmville etc from your answer)

[stealth6]

I don’t think any kind of information has been released about what they plan do do to actually make money in the game.
This might be interesting though: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/35749-Paul-Wedgwood-Splash-Damage-s-F2P-games-as-ethical-as-possible

I was initally wary of the F2P system, since when it was first introduced it was more P2W. But since then titles like TF2, Dota2 & Tribes: Ascend have proved that the F2P system isn’t as bad as I thought it was.

[badjasman]

[QUOTE=stealth6;459973]I don’t think any kind of information has been released about what they plan do do to actually make money in the game.
This might be interesting though: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/35749-Paul-Wedgwood-Splash-Damage-s-F2P-games-as-ethical-as-possible

I was initally wary of the F2P system, since when it was first introduced it was more P2W. But since then titles like TF2, Dota2 & Tribes: Ascend have proved that the F2P system isn’t as bad as I thought it was.[/QUOTE]

Checking your link now. Thanks for the reply

[badjasman]

Checking your link now. Thanks for the reply

Haha, well done! You have found the most suitable link imaginable

Am I wrong to deduce from your reaction that, although less bad as before, F2P still has a long way to go before its generally supported and accepted.
The games you are describing clearly first had to prove themselves to you before you accepted them?

Anyway, the reason I am trying to get a discussion started about the concept, is to promote general awareness of the concept.
In light of your link; I hope open discussion will stimulate Splash developers and others to remain ethical.

[stealth6]

No, I think F2P has already come a long way and is already accepted by the majority.

As that topic stated, I think SD are well aware of the concepts of F2P vs P2W. I’m looking forward to see what they come up with for DB.

[badjasman]

[QUOTE=stealth6;459979]No, I think F2P has already come a long way and is already accepted by the majority.

As that topic stated, I think SD are well aware of the concepts of F2P vs P2W. I’m looking forward to see what they come up with for DB.[/QUOTE]

My first link from IGN (article written 4 days ago) states that core-gamers are apparently reluctant to trust F2P in general.
Well established companies like SD have the unique ability to use their earned thrust to promote F2P, just like your link showed Splash Damage doing so.

Which by the way is an absolute marvel of a link, since it fully answered the following;

I sincerely hope your intentions are and remain pure, and that the mistake of switching to this business model can be corrected and transformed into a positive thing. Maybe you could actually prove to me and others that free to play is an effective way to battle piracy while still boosting the monetary potential of games but most importantly; without limiting the less fortunate!

With the following by Paul Wedgwood:

“…We try to be as ethical as possible with our games. We wanted something that was great, that could be played well by putting in time and little money; something that’s completely free from the start. A lot of free to play games are over-monetised … In the West, we tend to see that the person with the most skill should win, not the person with the most money.”

So as for that, I’ll give you +2 for proving your point, and strengthening it with a solid reference.
You said you were initially wary of F2P but changed your stance afterwards, and perhaps your perspective on F2P is indeed correct. At least you have showed me that F2P deserves to be explored further by companies. I guess I am somewhat afraid that it will get in the way of reliving W:ET.

Apart from the question of whether or not F2P is whatever, let me ask you the following:
What is your thought on what I wrote here:

…but I am wondering why the clear success of wolf:ET couldn’t be translated into an profitable game while steering clear from the free to play model.

Would you rather buy a complete game or buy it in bits?

P.S. - I am looking forward as well for more info about DB development

[Mustang]

I was initially dubious of SD going F2P, but recently most of the big publishers have either released or announced F2P games, which makes me now think that SD are in-fact ahead of the curve and as it appears to be the way the industry is moving then it’s a less risky strategy due to more people becoming accepting of such a model.

The ethical discussion is the crux where this will either be a massive success or fall flat on it’s face IMO.

SD have never struck me as a greedy money grabbing organisation, so I do honestly have high hopes that a happy medium is achievable.

Would you rather buy a complete game or buy it in bits?

My personally preferred model is a free demo then fully purchasable game, because if I don’t get to try before I buy then I’m not going to buy.

But that seems to have been done away with in recent years, I believe this is because the gaming industry is now mostly consisting of sequels, so gamers know more or less what a game is going to be like. For me this sucks!

F2P is kind of similar to having a demo, so in that respect I don’t mind, and if there is a product in the micro-transaction shop that unlocks everything, then that would be synonymous with a fully purchasable game.

So in many respects it is the model I prefer, just with more options, i.e. micro-transactions for those that do prefer to buy little by little.

[badjasman]

Thanks for your reply!

I agree on what you are saying, and your vision about the demo function is pretty valid.

If the option for purchasing every unlock is not more than 60$, or standard game price, then I agree on your point that there is no difference in buying a full game.
But the full unlock will likely restrict access to later added content without purchase of those. This seems to difficult to allow for a full unlock option, unfortunately.

[stealth6]

I’m reading the IGN link, but most of it is speculation and hypothesis. Also they started off by saying what if we changed BL2 to a P2W system and then act surprised at the backlash…
Maybe if they had come up with a better system (which they touch upon later in the article) people would like it more. Well in fact I’m pretty sure they would (Dota2, TF2)

I also think the article is wrong in saying payed games get away with DLC so easily while F2P games can’t. I think those are the biggest outcries of rage when people see stuff like day 1 DLC or maps split up into DLC packs.

I wouldn’t get your hopes up about reliving W:ET, W:ET was not F2P it was just completely free! Also completely open to modders & mappers. (If they offered this in DB, I expect they’d be cutting into their own profits - since you could make the items yourself)
On the other hand TF2 does offer SDK options and manages to survive, but it was a huge title before it went F2P so we’ll have to wait and see how modding options pan out.

On the case of would I prefer buying a complete game or buying it in bits, then of course I’m going to say I prefer to buy a complete game.

I was typing out all the different types of F2P schemes I’ve seen in games and what I thought worked and what didn’t, but in the end I think it can just be summed up that I trust SD and the post that they are going to make it as ethical as possible is enough reassurance for me.

[badjasman]

Before going into detail, ill first say that I see the logic in your perspective.

Your right about the link being speculation. I tried to find additional proof, but other then linking to many individual forums, or citing those I know personally, I can’t prove that the majority of core gamers are rejected by the F2P concept and would rather pay complete games.

DLC btw, is regarded by me as a unethical marketing technique. Not including extensive updates like RA2-Yuri’s revenge etc. I fully agree on DLC being a rip-off in most cases.

Going to W:ET, I was actually referring to the last version of the non-modded game with the standard maps. Without XP-save forever, bots, shotgun, and epub/jaymod etc.
In the original game, your level sure got you an advantage, but teamwork always prevailed. As long as bad players understood the objective and knew the layouts of the map, teamplay would win the game over individual skill.
F2P wouldn’t have to ruin that ofcource. I agree. SD seems trustworthy on that indeed.

Apart from that, the modding and mapping support definitely made W:ET as big as it was. Maybe I am not searching in the good place, but most servers are full of bots, and the remaining are not original. I think this is quite a waste since its quite good on its own.

Edit: since this about W:ET is off-topic, Ill just head over to the W:ET threats and see for additional info.

[TracyJackson]

Honestly, I don’t mind the F2P model. As long as the stuffs being sold is just cosmetics (hats, glasses, camo, gun skins, etc), then I have no problem with it. I just might get suckered into buying a few, as I’m just that sort of guy who can’t resist the urge to buy stuffs if I could. Nothing that should give one player a massive adv over another…

Excited to see the business model for DB in the future !

[Falcon.PL]

Good topic first of all. Especially since not so much is going on at the forum, which is supposed to be full of such discussions, I guess.

Having said that, let’s proceed to the topic itself:
The free-to-play model smells bad at first sight. Then I recall ET was free to play and that is the remedy for negative-affection towards the model. Yet in ET there was nothing to buy - the suspicions aroused again… Since we know what follows:

1. There will be a merc thing, that is either a class or a class-extension, depenting on angle you look at. It feels like deriving from 5 classes into 5 mercs directly and then adding some extras.

2. There is a founder-merc thing, which is a merc like in point 1, yet it has different outfit(likely including both shape change and skin-image change).

3. From what was confirmed also - when you buy a pack, appropriate set of mercs, and fancy outfits for them, are assigned to your account and are available instantly(but not before release date).

4. Without a pack you can still unlock the mercs (without fancy outfit, yet all the same besides) through the in-game efforts.

Problems arising:

a) Founder-outfits may have different shapes of player-model, that will likely influence relative reaction times of enemies. If you can see tiny part of enemy before he can see any part of you, you have an advantage since you can start aiming procedure in your brain before enemy will. The hit-boxes staying the same does not change that. Similarly with colors - some are more visible, while some are less, on a given background. It does matter.

b) Difference in availability time - for some time a new player will be in somewhat worse situation if has not payed. Pay-to-win classic? Temporary mode of it, and works just once per player assuming 1 account per user. Still something that feels wrong. In general - even if everyone has to unlock the mercs(both with fancy outfits and with standard outfits) there is a problem for newcomers. I personally don’t like the unlock-driven gaming models. For example BFBC2 got it wrong in my eyes, since only a few weapons were available for a fresh player. It’s fun to unlock, yet its not competitive; it’s fairly casual approach.

c) Potential customer comprehension - “Oh, another pay-to-win”, who in hell will pay any attention to dive deep into specifics of a game of series he don’t know and did not anticipate any of them ever? Totally new player for Splash Damage will see there is something to buy, and it influences in-game things = pay to win + all the pay-to-win relative thoughts (bad quality, poor balance and so on). It just looks wrong and cheap. Customers cares about game’s price, the higher price, the better reception. There are also many sayings about “free goods”, the quotes says one of those.

Solutions: I see but one. Splash cannot resign from the outfit difference - it was promised and ppl bought it, it’s now constant. The variable thing is the mercs availability. My proposition is: Unlocked from the very start and for all - less casual approach.

[Mustang]

Do you really think that having to play the game for a couple of days to unlock everything will mean people think it’s play2win?

For me as long as it’s not a grind then it’s fine, I’m not going to start playing the game and enter a tournament before I’ve played a bit and gotten used to how everything works and feels, progressive character unlocks are a nice way of saying “hey you’ve played with this character for a while, why not have a go with this other guy and see if you like it better”.

[stealth6]

My initial reaction in BFBC2 was wtf all the weapons are locked! I can’t even play the medic class as a medic?!

But after you’ve played the game for a little while you see that it’s actually an interesting idea. That was the player is slowly taught about each feature of the game and isn’t overwhelmed. Also it wasn’t very extreme I think you could unlock a class in a week time.

Planet side 2 on the other hand is a lot worse imo. There you have to play half a week to 1 week to unlock 1 weapon! And the weapons you buy are definitely better than the original weapons. (P2W game imo)

[Djiesse]

For me as long as it’s not a grind then it’s fine, I’m not going to start playing the game and enter a tournament before I’ve played a bit and gotten used to how everything works and feels, progressive character unlocks are a nice way of saying “hey you’ve played with this character for a while, why not have a go with this other guy and see if you like it better”.

Agreed. If you get things bit by bit (at a reasonable pace, mind you), it force you to try the basics before you jump ahead. It’s kind of a built-in learning curve.

[Nail]

[QUOTE=Falcon.PL;460152]Good topic first of all. Especially since not so much is going on at the forum, which is supposed to be full of such discussions, I guess.

.[/QUOTE]
the closed alpha forums are a buzz with activity

btw, your assumptions are wrong

[Falcon.PL]

[QUOTE=stealth6;460167]My initial reaction in BFBC2 was wtf all the weapons are locked! I can’t even play the medic class as a medic?!

But after you’ve played the game for a little while you see that it’s actually an interesting idea. That was the player is slowly taught about each feature of the game and isn’t overwhelmed. Also it wasn’t very extreme I think you could unlock a class in a week time.

Planet side 2 on the other hand is a lot worse imo. There you have to play half a week to 1 week to unlock 1 weapon! And the weapons you buy are definitely better than the original weapons. (P2W game imo)[/QUOTE]

Initial reaction is very important especially in DB case, because you got it for free at release and as easy to get, it’s also easy to push back away. “Hey, I lose nothing but a few minutes to download and not so much longer to install.” When one pay for a game, he may feel more eager to give it a second chance. That’s how brain works, we strongly want to be consistent in time in our decisions and opinions. “If I bought a game, I payed for it, it must be good game for the ****'s sake!”

For us - who plays SD games since long time - it will not matter, we will wait and many of us will enjoy the unlocking, but not newcomers who we kind of invite, don’t we? And if it’s a few days affair, as Mustang said, - it’s simply not worth it.

[QUOTE=Mustang;460164]Do you really think that having to play the game for a couple of days to unlock everything will mean people think it’s play2win?

For me as long as it’s not a grind then it’s fine, I’m not going to start playing the game and enter a tournament before I’ve played a bit and gotten used to how everything works and feels, progressive character unlocks are a nice way of saying “hey you’ve played with this character for a while, why not have a go with this other guy and see if you like it better”.[/QUOTE]

If it’s a few days deal - I don’t care, but then you likely are not very happy too, I guess? I can imagine it’s fun to unlock something that takes a bit of effort to unlock, but merely few days to get it all? ETQW ranks were harder to get and they mean about nothing real. Some ppl were even wasting long hours to get the next rank through faking the XP-giving activities though, instead of playing so I believe it can be fun… But not when easy to get.

Therefore if it is fun for “unlockers” it’s a real problem for “balancers”. That is why it matters, while why it might influence the potential customer is far easier - they don’t know about DB yet, and what is better for them to know early?

a) Balanced game with purchasable outfits! (newcomer thinks: Just like hats in TF2! It’s fine with me!)
b) Free to play with stuff to buy! And the stuff influences gameplay! (Oh no! I don’t care about that game anymore!)

Simple, since ppl generaly don’t care too much to investigate into details of the game they hear about for the very first time, while there is a hint it’s play-to-win. It does not have to be true, surely. The potential customer have but little time for short descriptions for a game, it’s better to have nothing that needs making excuses in it. Customer might simply be there no more to listen. And again - for mere few days feature? It’s not even worth development time, debugging in future, and finally explaining to those, who gave the game a swift try and see something what they perceive wrong.

Good day all.

[Djiesse]

So far there’s been no mention of any “stuff to buy” that influences gameplay, unless you consider different skins to be significant (the colors can be in some circumstances, but that can swing either way depending on the environment, so I don’t see that as a consistent advantage).

As for the “unlocking mercs” part, the trick would be to pace the unlocks so it doesn’t feel like grind, while at the same time giving you something to look forward to. And if these progressive unlucks are indeed the way you will obtain additional mercs, then I would suggest that you should get to pick which one to unlock each time. That would eliminate the impression that later unlocks are more powerful and allow the system to gradually slow down the pace of the unlocks to spread them further and further apart. So in your first few days of play time you might be able to unlock the 3 or 4 mercs you want most, but to eventually get the complete set could take quite some time. You get to have the mercs you feel are the most powerful or best suited to your play style up front and the others become more of an achievement / collection thing and a motivation to keep playing.

[krylonshadow]

WARNING: Wall of text =)

Summary: Weapons and equipment should not cost money or require intense grinding. That kind of model drives away not only casual players but potentially good players who will lose interest before they actually get to unlock anything.

First off, I wouldn’t really classify Dota 2 or TF2 as F2P games. They are, in fact, free to play…however, Valve’s production quality on these games exceeds the production quality on most full-price games. Valve is one of the gaming giants, and they can afford to pour tons of time and money into a game that is “free” with the anticipation that their economically clever game models will yield large profits in the long term.

I used to be a pretty dedicated gamer who spent many many hours on every game that appeased my trigger finger. However, I no longer have the time nor do I even enjoy putting that many hours into a game anymore. I am embarrassed to admit that I have in actuality become more of a casual gamer.

That being said, I think most F2P games are utter garbage. Why? Because my first impression of them is that their production quality is really poor, their gameplay is rarely groundbreaking, and after an hour or two of lackluster gameplay, I am not only bored of the game but I have hardly progressed, maybe gaining a few levels but hardly unlocking anything.

I am no longer the kind of person who will play for 100 hours to unlock everything, not even close. In fact, I will get frustrated immediately when I find games that reward both those who pay-to-win as well as those who grind-to-win. Most F2P games and even a lot of full-price games like Battlefield 3, devolve to this game where the dedicated “pros” who have grinded their way to the top have every weapon and perk available. Maybe the weapons are balanced pretty well, but I’m constantly using my skill and aiming to keep up with people using weapons, attachments, gear, and perks that I don’t have access to yet. Perhaps the gun I’d be “good” with and therefore have more fun with is actually one of the last unlockable guns. It may not be much better than other guns but it has the right recoil and range and damage that suits my playstyle perfectly. However I will never have access to it, because the game has failed to keep me hooked long enough. It’s a catch 22.

Even though I just bought the Veteran’s package and have high hopes for this game (most developers miss the big picture, but SD has literally developed a system to help them see the big picture, that’s a step in a very good direction), there’s still a huge chance that if the final version of this game has weapon unlock progression based on leveling, I may only play it for a few hours and never again.

I don’t think I’m alone in this either. Some F2P games are very successful, however it’s usually only a small amount of people who have spent real money or have grinded far beyond the average that end up staying around for a long time. The rest of the community in most games will drop off pretty quickly over time, and then fluctuate with content releases, updates, PR, and just general stumbling upon. I personally think it’s because gamers, pro or casual, want to feel as though their value in the game is equal to any other player.

I think a good game model (in general, not for DB necessarily) would be to have a Counter-Strike kind of buy system, but fused with character customization and presets. Keep weapons and perks unlockable but make them unlock VERY quickly (new unlock for every match played, or make experience accumulate very quick). In-game, you’d still have to earn enough money through kills, assists, objectives, etc. in each match to purchase equipment. You could have presets with pretty good equipment that cost no money, for people who are having trouble accumulating enough money for their own custom equipment presets. With this kind of model I would enjoy the feeling of quickly unlocking items and then trying out different configs, and it would maintain a level playing field throughout matches. if I see someone using a weapon that I wanna try, I don’t have to grind 80 more hours or pay $10. I do however have to be on my toes, play the game to earn the money I need in that match in order to equip that weapon.

[EvoSteven]

I often dislike ‘unlocking’ stuff.

The only game that did unlocking things ‘right’ for me was… surprisingly enough, Call of Duty: Black Ops.

You didn’t have to level to unlock weapons. You would earn money per match and with that money you can buy any gun in the store, no limits.
Not praising CoD or anything but that’s actually a good system.

I think League of Legends is also one of those decent F2P games. There’s no unlocks (except perhaps Masteries and Runes which help you a little bit, but anyone can get them) and you can get any champion you want as long as you have the ingame money. No pay to win, you can unlock champions quicker though but the only other use for real money is cosmetic skins.

Frustrating thing is, even AAA titles have unlock systems. I paid for your game, let me use my content damnit!