Proposal: Waterloo Terminus Final Objective REDONE


(ImageOmega) #1

Ever since I joined the alpha this final phase of Waterloo Terminus has been under discussion and has seen several changes every few weeks. Talking with some other testers we have a proposal to redo the final objective. I do think that the changes they have made (for the most part - that one wall they added near defensive stairwell to objective was silly) have been helpful in making this point more playable. The fact is that this last area is not a very strategic one, but yet more of a Free-For-All.


The biggest reason this final objective does not work is because of the large size of the room housing the reactors and all the high ground vantage points over looking it. If this was a game based purely on killing I would never set foot in this room as I could be shot at from so many different places. Take that into an objective offense/defense mindset and how viable is it for a defense to hold this area?

The changes being proposed are actually adding an underground area akin to the underground tunnels that are already a part of the map, but are not accessible. You can find them via free spec or walls without clipping. This way we can still keep the same room, but add underneath it a final objective to bomb that has chokepoints for defense to set up or an offense to break through.

Here is how the final scenario would play out:

[ul]
[li]Attackers access PDA to unlock doors to underground tunnel area
[/li][li]Once PDA is to 100% - 2 or 3 entrances open up to underground tunnel area
[/li][li]Defense must set up underground to protect a final bombing objective located directly below current final objective
[/li][li]Attackers must break through defensive chokepoints to get a plant off and then defend the plant
[/li][/ul]

If this is hard to visualize, hopefully these images will help.

Currently, there are a few closed doors that are a part of the map. I think it would be simplest to make these the doors that open up to the underground area. One entrance would be close to defensive spawn. A second entrance would be accessible through a door near the single escalator on the right side of the reactors right before you hit the main room (from attacker side). A third entrance would also be closer to the attacker side and only be accessible from the Vapor/Radiation underground area that an engine must clear out.




Finally, this underground area can be something like the map Metro from Battlefield 3. We can see more of those same trains already all over the map in a dark underground area that would see plenty of chokepoints and strategic holds. And, in case there is any doubt of how good of an area this can be Metro is seen as one of the most popular maps in Battlefield 3 in a variety of game modes.

Here’s an image of Metro in BF3 in case you need more visuals:


Somewhere in the middle of this underground/forgotten tunnel area would be an objective to explode that is more or less equidistant from both spawns with attackers having a slight advantage if they pump out the vapor room (giving them a 2nd entrance). I know this underground area would make the objective gameplay stand out instead of the room feeling more like a FFA where you are able to be attacked from so many different angles. Not to mention this could be a vastly confusing area to casual or newer players.

As an addendum: There was also discussion instead of using any of the doors I pictured above, but using the reactors now and have those doors that open via the PDA actually be doors that lead to this underground area.


(Valdez) #2

I like this proposal. Currently the final phase is just an ffa and impossible to defend due to there being no choke points. Just make an underground section that is accessible after doing the pda phase, setup some choke points add some objective to blow up and call it a day also feel free to welcome yourself aboard.


(Hundopercent) #3

It would make the map feel larger as well and that you’re actually progressing towards something like in Camden. I like this idea and hope to see it implemented.


(INF3RN0) #4

I find the whole part of this map just doesn’t have any rhyme or reason in terms of how teams are supposed to defend the last 2 bomb objectives- it’s currently pure chaos with little incentive for team play. Everything up to that point works fairly well. It’s the fact that the objs are sitting in a huge open space. I would be down for moving both or just one of the objectives to an underground level with access from the middle region. This way you still have people using the area.


(maxxxxlol) #5

I wouldn’t mind seeing the 2 last bomb objectives split up. move one to the next area and set them up so the defence has to choose which one to defend.

Would need to tweak defence spawn and choke points for both though.


(Samurai.) #6

I’m quite interested in this idea, as i have to say once you hack the PDA you don’t transition into a new area of the map for the last obj’s… it feels quite repetitive, and stalling progress as your just fighting across the same environment again.

I wouldn’t say that the map design of metro was entirely responsible in terms of good play… it’s more the added fact of large teams, small map, massive chokepoints = lot’s of killing/stat padding which in combination with the BF3 stats site makes it the best map for ranking up whatever you achieve. That’s why when i did play BF3 you always saw 24/7 Metro servers most popular.

But from what i can remember it was a nice map to play with smaller teams and im in favour of changing up this last objective.


(rookie1) #7

I have a Philosophy that says Always look the simpliest way First.
And i dont think the proposal doesnt fit with that Philosophy
I didnt really analyse this part of the map yet .Found the DPA too slow yesterday too complete
But i think the games I played was 50% win in this map
Can this map be tweak for better defense ? maybe …Is the MG usefull at entrance?..never saw someone using it .
I like this part of the map but if it can be optimized ,Great !
Keep incoming any other sugestions please !


(iwound) #8

Just 1 flaw with the plan. You criticise the indoor area but your still using it in your plan.
i think its ok. yours ideas are ok but they dont make it better just different.


(.Chris.) #9

I think the map is at such a stage where I’m not sure they would be very keen on moving the objectives into a new area, it would be a lot of work at this late stage but I think it would work well regardless.

I’m not entirely sure how they can keep the objectives in the current area and improve. Perhaps a start would be to only have one door on each container, there is currently 4 different points you can plant at, this is too much in my opinion. I would be tempted block those balconies and gaps that overlook the room at the attack side and the crossing scaffold bit and then reduce the size of the exposed balcony at the PDA objective, keep a gap there for hero nades and such. You can block the gaps I mentioned with glass or something alone those lines so you can still see if people are using those routes but are unable to engage them or for them to engage, I don’t like how you can be shot from loads of spots in that main room. Now you’ve plugged these gaps you can create more of a focus on the objectives, the defence should be able to set up at the various entrances which would be reduced now you’ve plugged some of the gaps as now you can jump into the fray from too many points which makes it quite difficult to defend against at times.

I’ll try get some pictures later to illustrate what I mean, waffling on a bit now…


(rookie1) #10

Could this help without doing major changes?



This should give defense a good defend radius of the central aera
Attacker would still have 4 entrances for this room
-by commerce (up stair can be blocked)
-underground
-central
-central escalators


(iwound) #11

If the pda balcony is an issue at the stage were you have to plant C4.
Then why not bring shutters down after the hack so it seals it off.
With the radiation doors open it might make sense that areas get sealed off.

And do it on the balconies you don’t want available.
I don’t think access needs to be sealed so it can still be used as a route.
But would be interesting to see a future level that had changeable routes.


(rookie1) #12

when PDA is set you can just jump out the balcony and plant c4 right away …why not having the doors from the reactors opening very slowly (that would give the time to defense to regroup) and for awesomeness make a clear window coming down simultaneously and close the balcony central side view (like iwound suggested)


(Valdez) #13

[QUOTE=rookie1;435384]Could this help without doing major changes?



This should give defense a good defend radius of the central aera
Attacker would still have 4 entrances for this room
-by commerce (up stair can be blocked)
-underground
-central
-central escalators[/QUOTE]

Rookie1, are you the guy that fixed whitechapels church stage? seems like you both have the same idea for fixing a flawed area, fire in an mg42 and it will solve all the problems.


(rookie1) #14

No not me …^^
There is more in WC than that that had changed …and im not the one that suggested them
Well if it works why not ?
read more ^^ …about the window and reactors doors …these can help also… no ?


(Valdez) #15

[QUOTE=rookie1;435415]No not me …^^
There is more in WC than that that had changed …and im not the one that suggested them
Well if it works why not ?
read more ^^ …about the window and reactors doors …these can help also… no ?[/QUOTE]

Sure yeah I think the other suggestions you make could help, but in all honesty I would rather go with imageomega’s idea. I think with his idea this could go from being the worst phase of the map (which is other wise a very good map), to the best and most exciting phase of the map.


(nailzor) #16

Lol, I am not a fan of “this part of map is broken, lets plop down some MG’s - PROBLEM SOLVED”

I think the PDA stage is fine, but the last stage leaves something to be desired. I like the idea of using concepts from BF3 Metro, map was tight.

Have an underground subway part of the map that is expanding up the 2nd phase vapor area - just make it bigger and have 2-3 entrances to get into it. We already have one entrance near the offense spawn, so add one near the defense spawn area but same distance away from spawn point, and a 3rd alternate route that either can use optionally to get downstairs. Have a plantable objective downstairs which is not “plantable” until the PDA reaches 100% - this would also create a cool strategy of:

Defense: Oh crap the PDA is at 85% and rising, everyone abandon the PDA and lets start setting up the last phase of defense.
Offense: Sweet the PDA is at 85% and rising, lets send a couple downstairs to start clearing out the plant area


(rookie1) #17

I hope you guys dont have the got bored syndrome and need some new just for been new ! :stuck_out_tongue:


(Humate) #18

this would also create a cool strategy of:
Defense: Oh crap the PDA is at 85% and rising, everyone abandon the PDA and lets start setting up the last phase of defense.
Offense: Sweet the PDA is at 85% and rising, lets send a couple downstairs to start clearing out the plant area

Nice. This is how etqw plays btw.:slight_smile:


(ImageOmega) #19

[QUOTE=iwound;435373]Just 1 flaw with the plan. You criticise the indoor area but your still using it in your plan.
i think its ok. yours ideas are ok but they dont make it better just different.[/QUOTE]

I think you misread my post. I did not criticize the final objective room because it is indoors, I criticized it because there are so many vantage points to watch out for thus making the area extremely hard to cover for defense. Also, the room is basically a giant FFA square. Coordinating strategy is tough because there are so many areas to look out for. Basically, this all boils down to random combat instead of strategic fights. Have you ever coordinated an attack or defense on this last objective for an entire team? I have and it’s not pretty. Basically, you have to hope that the enemy comes in where you think they will and you aren’t flanked from two or three different directions.

My proposal is to take the fight to an area where there are less random encounters. More akin to the first objective where you know when you get close to the forward spawn you are walking into a fire fight. So it being indoors is actually a benefit for both teams to either push an attack or set up a defense through coordinated efforts in a more straight forward area with choke points to secure. Think of choke points as the same thing as locking down a section of the map that is crucial to both teams. I challenge you to name a spot in the current final objective room that is crucial to hold as offense or defense. <-- Seriously (and I will refute).


(rookie1) #20

[QUOTE=ImageOmega;435437]I think you misread my post. I did not criticize the final objective room because it is indoors, I criticized it because there are so many vantage points to watch out for thus making the area extremely hard to cover for defense. Also, the room is basically a giant FFA square. Coordinating strategy is tough because there are so many areas to look out for. Basically, this all boils down to random combat instead of strategic fights. Have you ever coordinated an attack or defense on this last objective for an entire team? I have and it’s not pretty. Basically, you have to hope that the enemy comes in where you think they will and you aren’t flanked from two or three different directions.

My proposal is to take the fight to an area where there are less random encounters. More akin to the first objective where you know when you get close to the forward spawn you are walking into a fire fight. So it being indoors is actually a benefit for both teams to either push an attack or set up a defense through coordinated efforts in a more straight forward area with choke points to secure. Think of choke points as the same thing as locking down a section of the map that is crucial to both teams. I challenge you to name a spot in the current final objective room that is crucial to hold as offense or defense. <-- Seriously (and I will refute).[/QUOTE]

Would it be possible to do ^^ with the actual layout ?Can you find a way without major changes ?