Promoting teamplay is more important than promoting solo play.

(Sytn) #1

“There’s no I in Team” and “Ultimate Team-Based F2P shooter”. Just two of many advertisements used for Dirty Bomb.

When faced with developing new characters, the developers should prioritizes “What character can we make that promotes teamplay?” over “What character can we make that promotes solo play?”

There is a huge amount of potential out there for new characters that promote teamplay. So its a bit annoying that we get a character whose entire purpose is nothing but running solo and killing as many people as possible. Every character can kill other characters, what we need is a reason to work together, not a reason to separate and fight alone.

Why not a character who uses a shield that allies can hide behind? Give him an ability to put down shields as well for cover. Why not a character who can spot important threats and relay that to the team? Point out explosives and important objectives, when artillery is being called in ect. The point is that these characters promote people working together and not promoting people playing by themselves.

(watsyurdeal) #2

Because the reality is that even if you give people the tools to play as a team, it doesn’t guarantee shit.

And on the flipside, even if a class is built to be lone wolf, ie Phantom, people will still try to play him for their team. Like clearing out people sitting on the bomb sites and planting, or clearing them out of the room in Bridge and grab a sample.

It’s all about the PLAYER, not the Merc.

(Sytn) #3

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;42247”]Because the reality is that even if you give people the tools to play as a team, it doesn’t guarantee shit.

And on the flipside, even if a class is built to be lone wolf, ie Phantom, people will still try to play him for their team. Like clearing out people sitting on the bomb sites and planting, or clearing them out of the room in Bridge and grab a sample.

It’s all about the PLAYER, not the Merc.[/quote]

This is about the developers, not the players. If the players decide to use a character poorly, thats the players fault.

The developer is the responsible one here for making a character that does nothing but promote solo play.

Also, every character can kill any other character easily. Making a character dedicated to killing characters is redundant.

(watsyurdeal) #4

[quote=“Sytn;42248”]
This is about the developers, not the players. If the players decide to use a character poorly, thats the players fault.

The developer is the responsible one here for making a character that does nothing but promote solo play.

Also, every character can kill any other character easily. Making a character dedicated to killing characters is redundant. [/quote]

So Vasilli, Fragger, Nader, Rhino, Phantom, are all redundant then? Because that’s pretty much what they are built to do.

And that’s not the devs fault, how a character is used is up to player, the dev shouldn’t be taking responsibility for all the crappy Auras who rush and never revive or heal people for example.

(Sytn) #5

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;42250”][quote=“Sytn;42248”]
This is about the developers, not the players. If the players decide to use a character poorly, thats the players fault.

The developer is the responsible one here for making a character that does nothing but promote solo play.

Also, every character can kill any other character easily. Making a character dedicated to killing characters is redundant. [/quote]

So Vasilli, Fragger, Nader, Rhino, Phantom, are all redundant then? Because that’s pretty much what they are built to do.

And that’s not the devs fault, how a character is used is up to player, the dev shouldn’t be taking responsibility for all the crappy Auras who rush and never revive or heal people for example.
[/quote]

Rhino offers the ability to tank up damage, which is useful for a team. Its a common medic/tank combo that works well and really does promote people working together.

Fragger and Nader are not necessary just about killing. Their grenades are great for area denial and forcing the enemy to retreat (or if they dont, die) so your team can get to the objective. They also offer the ability to destroy objectives like EVs and turrets.

Vasilli and Phantom on the other hand only have one role. And thats kill people. Both are mistakes, and honestly should be replaced with characters that promote teamplay.

Also, you’re still missing the point that this is about the characters the developer makes. The players and how they use a character is totally irrelevant.

(Gi.Am) #6

Phantoms and Vassilis role is a important team role.
They are not simply about killing people they are about killing the right people at the right time. Vassili is best if he takes out high value targets (like medics engineers) before a fight even begins. Fighting a team that is 2 men short and can’t get revives is a very valuable thing.
Likewise Phantom. He is a bit slow and has to take longer routes so it is highly unlikely that he can kill people before the fight starts.
However he can get in the back killing those that stay behind and support the frontline (medics/recons/engineers) at the same time he creates a second front forcing a enemy team to split their attention to two sides.

Both also enforce teamwork on the other side of the fence. Vassilis efficiency is greatly reduced if people call out snipers (and maybe send their own phantom out). likewise Phantom forces you to watch the back of your team mates. With him on the field you can’t wander off TDMing away, while Proxy tries to do the objective all by herself. It was hard before, but now with a phantom hiding and waiting to backstab singled out Mercs that are busy, it is impossible.

(Sussepus) #7

as long as kills gives such big amount of points many people will go the tdm route.
nerf the points given for killing and increase all points from the other sources(to make up for it) and people will start acting like a team. no one would just go around killing as lone wolf if it was more useful for them to give ammo, attack/defend objectives, protect others, heal, stick together etc.

(Sytn) #8

[quote=“Gi.Am;42404”]Phantoms and Vassilis role is a important team role.
They are not simply about killing people they are about killing the right people at the right time. Vassili is best if he takes out high value targets (like medics engineers) before a fight even begins. Fighting a team that is 2 men short and can’t get revives is a very valuable thing.
Likewise Phantom. He is a bit slow and has to take longer routes so it is highly unlikely that he can kill people before the fight starts.
However he can get in the back killing those that stay behind and support the frontline (medics/recons/engineers) at the same time he creates a second front forcing a enemy team to split their attention to two sides.

Both also enforce teamwork on the other side of the fence. Vassilis efficiency is greatly reduced if people call out snipers (and maybe send their own phantom out). likewise Phantom forces you to watch the back of your team mates. With him on the field you can’t wander off TDMing away, while Proxy tries to do the objective all by herself. It was hard before, but now with a phantom hiding and waiting to backstab singled out Mercs that are busy, it is impossible.[/quote]

Killing characters is a role any other class can do, while also having abilities that support the team. You dont need a sniper or a stealth character to kill people in the back lines. The maps are also often designed to allow players ways to get behind the enemy to take out their back lines.

Vassili and Phantom are redundant as all hell, and really diminish the quality of the game. Particularly since killing important targets means nothing to the player, they might as well go for the fastest and easiest kills because thats all that matters to them, as dedicated killers, is a good K/D ratio.

(scorchingPainting) #9

But, they are twice as efficient at it, and twice as scary. Vassili puts himself in no danger and instagibs medics and the like very easily. Phantom puts himself in a little more danger, but is a bigger distraction. He can easily gib Proxies fixing the EV, or Sparks’ keeping their team alive from distance and subsequently forces the whole team to keep an eye on their backs, meaning they cant watch the objective at all times. The problem is, Phantom is just a little strong at the moment, so he just goes around slaying everyone, rather than taking the important targets and causing confusion, he just sort of slices his way through a team.

These Mercs have their place in the game, thats for sure.

(metallicCandle) #10

phantom is one that promotes team play.

he forces aura spark and proxy to stay closer to the team, aura cant be run as tf2 scout anymore, she has to stay close to the team and gasp heal and revive.

I have been playing phantom today and before one of my main annoyances was the flanking auras. Enemy auras running thru shottynubing all over the place, and my team auras doing the same, no one reviving or healing.

Not so much anymore, a flanking aura is my snackfood. They tend to stick with the team more…

Many where claiming spark was “op” not so much anymore when the revgun tells phantom where to go.

course I cant just rush at a group of players because 8/10 time I’ll be spotted and mowed down b4 I get there

A good vasilli is the bane of my existence, his heartbeat sensor, if placed on the flanking routes, will ruin my day

(Gi.Am) #11

Sure any class can kill but they are not as effective doing it and propably should be doing something else anyways.
Can a Fragger or a Sawbonez kill a Vassili or a Sparks in the back? Sure but they have to kill 3 other mercs first, all the while vassili and sparks do their thing.
can a Proxy or a Skyhammer take a flanking route to get to them sure. But now noone is taking care of the objective and noone is giving out ammunition to the frontline.

Vassili and Phantom imidiently/constantly threaten the backline. Thats their job, thats what they provide for the team (aside from Vassilis heartbeat sensor). Thats what they’re designed for.

A Big point of the recon class (and to an extend the assault and really any class) is, that you have to play them in a way your team benefits. People hate the free Vassili weeks mainly because most people don’t play them right. Sitting somewhere far behind letting their team die and only going for the easy K/D inflation.
Those Vassilis are indeed dead weight for the team.

But a Vassili (and Phantom will be the same) that plays in positions where he takes out enemies before they hit the team, where he prevents defuse attempts. Is someone you absolutely want to have in your team.

Watch any of the of the tournament matches and you will see Vassili played right, how he quite often is the guy that makes or breaks a successful attack/defend.

(MTLMortis) #12

[quote=“Sussepus;42413”]as long as kills gives such big amount of points many people will go the tdm route.
nerf the points given for killing and increase all points from the other sources(to make up for it) and people will start acting like a team. no one would just go around killing as lone wolf if it was more useful for them to give ammo, attack/defend objectives, protect others, heal, stick together etc.[/quote]

A thousand times this. I’ve said that same thing repeatedly throughout multiple FPS games.

(Jojack) #13

Look, I hate Phantom as much as the next guy but to say he brings nothing to the team is just being blind.

Fragging is the single most important aspect in the game. Good medic work a close second. If the entire team is dead, you don’t need an engineer. Pretty simple.

Also, where Phantom really shines is an area it feels like most people haven’t figured out, and probably not coincidentally, why he changes the game in a bad way. He is most useful when he can slip behind enemy lines and attack new spawn waves. He doesn’t even have to kill anyone. Just attack them, cloak and evade. He can make the battle line so far away from the objective and force a large chunk of the enemy to forget about the objective and just hunt him…a phantom.

While doing this, I would argue he contributes to the objective in the most powerful way we’ve seen yet. Other classes have always been able to do this, but he is built to do it efficiently and for a sustained amount of time. He forces the enemy team into a TDM match against him while the rest of his team happily completes objective after objective with little resistance.

I’ve said this since he was released. He changes the flow of the game from a fast paced, team focused, objective based game into a game of hide and seek/TDM on his terms. THAT’s what is ruining people’s fun. Not that he’s OP and pwning everyone, it’s that he’s changing the game.

(Sytn) #14

Im disappointed by this thread. Obviously this isn’t the game I was led to believe it was as it seems this community cares more killing and playing solo than actually playing a game about teamwork.

Its sad to see a game with such potential squandered.

(Ghosthree3) #15

[quote=“Sytn;43298”]Im disappointed by this thread. Obviously this isn’t the game I was led to believe it was as it seems this community cares more killing and playing solo than actually playing a game about teamwork.

Its sad to see a game with such potential squandered. [/quote]
First time venturing into the online video game world?

(Sytn) #16

[quote=“Ghosthree3;43304”][quote=“Sytn;43298”]Im disappointed by this thread. Obviously this isn’t the game I was led to believe it was as it seems this community cares more killing and playing solo than actually playing a game about teamwork.

Its sad to see a game with such potential squandered. [/quote]
First time venturing into the online video game world?[/quote]

Typical I ignore official forums because its full of nothing but fanboys who will defend any game design by a company to death rather than even consider the fact there could have been a better way.

There are plenty of games that promote teamplay and have good communities. Dirty Bomb had the potential to join those games but if this forum and the design choice of making Phantom is representative of its community and the future there is little hope Dirty Bomb will live up to that potential.

(watsyurdeal) #17

The game is full of players who are still new to the game, you can’t expect to just start playing as a team right away. Like I don’t expect an Aura to revive me these days, I just don’t.

But that doesn’t mean the mercs don’t promote team play, it just means people haven’t figured out that teamwork is what wins you games, not your k:d

(Temporary) #18

[quote=“Sytn;43306”]Typical I ignore official forums because its full of nothing but fanboys who will defend any game design by a company to death rather than even consider the fact there could have been a better way.

There are plenty of games that promote teamplay and have good communities. Dirty Bomb had the potential to join those games but if this forum and the design choice of making Phantom is representative of its community and the future there is little hope Dirty Bomb will live up to that potential.
[/quote]

Hardly fanboys, it seems as though you’re not understanding their counter arguments. Lets ignore the fact that whilst the developers make the game the players play it how they want which is why it seems like you’re having issues.

Personally I think that Phantom promotes team play because everyone keeps an eye out for him and lets you know when you have one on your tail or where he is heading once you’ve been gutted by one.

You’re insulting everyone here by saying that DB doesn’t have a good community and quite frankly you’re promoting a poor community as a result.

(Sytn) #19

[quote=“Temporary;43320”][quote=“Sytn;43306”]Typical I ignore official forums because its full of nothing but fanboys who will defend any game design by a company to death rather than even consider the fact there could have been a better way.

There are plenty of games that promote teamplay and have good communities. Dirty Bomb had the potential to join those games but if this forum and the design choice of making Phantom is representative of its community and the future there is little hope Dirty Bomb will live up to that potential.
[/quote]

Hardly fanboys, it seems as though you’re not understanding their counter arguments. Lets ignore the fact that whilst the developers make the game the players play it how they want which is why it seems like you’re having issues.

Personally I think that Phantom promotes team play because everyone keeps an eye out for him and lets you know when you have one on your tail or where he is heading once you’ve been gutted by one.

You’re insulting everyone here by saying that DB doesn’t have a good community and quite frankly you’re promoting a poor community as a result.[/quote]

Iv already addressed all the arguments in this thread already, with nearly all of them just being rehashes of the same point. Forgive me if I dont bother to answer the same arguments over and over with the same response because people either ignore or dont understand what iv already said.

A good community would have realized there was something very wrong with the game when there was such an outcry against Phantom and the reduction in teamplay he causes. The only place defending this devolution of the game is this forum.

But I get it, you dont want the game to reach its potential and want to promote your soloplay. So I wont bother with this forum anymore.

(Ghosthree3) #20

The game is team orientated, there’s not much you can do to force people to play that way. Even the biggest team orientated game in the world - LoL - can’t control people playing for themselves all game.