Politely explaining why I believe the maps are poorly designed


(FrankieGodskin) #1

Here’s a test for you: can you, without mentioning an interactive object (machine gun emplacement, objective, command post, etc.), describe a location on a map? How about 5 locations on any map?

On Container City, for example, let’s say you see enemies approaching. Without saying “they’re near the crane” or “they’re escorting the bot,” how would you describe to your teammates where the enemies are?

There are two reasons why this problem exists. The first is that many environments are similarly colored for both teams, so you can’t even tell what side you spawn on. In Terminal, when you first spawn, you can’t tell which side you’re on. On the second half of Resort, if you’re attacking, when you spawn you’re often facing the wrong direction and don’t intuitively know where to go.

The second reason is that many assets are reused. There will be a hallway that leads to an identical hallway, or two flights of stairs that look exactly the same, or similarly colored crates that can’t be differentiated.

Founders’ Tower is a perfect example of how these design fundamentals can (IMO) destroy a map. I played several games on it tonight, and I’m still learning the map, but there is no flow to the design, and the sections blend together, making play on the map confusing. Several times, my teammates tried to tell me where something was happening, but there was no way for them to explain to me where the were. The best they could do was, “On the orange ramps. Not the ones in the beginning of the map, but the ones in the middle, that lead to the entrance of the lobby in front of the door thay have to blow up.” As you can imagine, communicating that while under fire is stressful, and by the time I receive those directions and change course, it’s too late.

If this game had more unique objects and areas, it would give players an immediate sense of where they are in the game world. “By the stairs,” is a location. So is, “in the courtyard” or “Down the hallway.” But when you have several of these on each map, it hinders teamwork.

If I tell you there’s a group of enemies at the top of the ramp in Security Tower, you know exactly where I am describing. If I tell you someone’s camping in the hangar on Terminal, you know where they are. Even ,“In the bridge above the Resistance spawn’s left exit” works.

But for the most part, you can’t do this, because nothing stands out. The maps have no identity. You might be able to name one or two spots per map that match my intial question, but if you try to describe specific sections of a map, there’s no frame of reference.


(wolfnemesis75) #2

Founders Tower. I am not sure you found all the great routes to the HE charge. So, try private match and learn the map better. The opening stages of FT is very balanced out. An aggressive team can get the job done here. Its all about the push, and not laying back and waiting. No guts, no glory. Great looking map. Beautiful.

Labs is just an outstanding map. With the two levels you can plant HE charge, and the multiple entry points into rooms, there are great levels of strategy and intrigue. Plus varied objectives and a delivery that has many different approaches. The outside portion is nicely rendered and imagined. Many tactics to this map and the hard work shows. Just great. :slight_smile:


(RabidAnubis) #3

[QUOTE=Frankie Godskin;364645]Here’s a test for you: can you, without mentioning an interactive object (machine gun emplacement, objective, command post, etc.), describe a location on a map? How about 5 locations on any map?

On Container City, for example, let’s say you see enemies approaching. Without saying “they’re near the crane” or “they’re escorting the bot,” how would you describe to your teammates where the enemies are?

There are two reasons why this problem exists. The first is that many environments are similarly colored for both teams, so you can’t even tell what side you spawn on. In Terminal, when you first spawn, you can’t tell which side you’re on. On the second half of Resort, if you’re attacking, when you spawn you’re often facing the wrong direction and don’t intuitively know where to go.

The second reason is that many assets are reused. There will be a hallway that leads to an identical hallway, or two flights of stairs that look exactly the same, or similarly colored crates that can’t be differentiated.

Founders’ Tower is a perfect example of how these design fundamentals can (IMO) destroy a map. I played several games on it tonight, and I’m still learning the map, but there is no flow to the design, and the sections blend together, making play on the map confusing. Several times, my teammates tried to tell me where something was happening, but there was no way for them to explain to me where the were. The best they could do was, “On the orange ramps. Not the ones in the beginning of the map, but the ones in the middle, that lead to the entrance of the lobby in front of the door thay have to blow up.” As you can imagine, communicating that while under fire is stressful, and by the time I receive those directions and change course, it’s too late.

If this game had more unique objects and areas, it would give players an immediate sense of where they are in the game world. “By the stairs,” is a location. So is, “in the courtyard” or “Down the hallway.” But when you have several of these on each map, it hinders teamwork.

If I tell you there’s a group of enemies at the top of the ramp in Security Tower, you know exactly where I am describing. If I tell you someone’s camping in the hangar on Terminal, you know where they are. Even ,“In the bridge above the Resistance spawn’s left exit” works.

But for the most part, you can’t do this, because nothing stands out. The maps have no identity. You might be able to name one or two spots per map that match my intial question, but if you try to describe specific sections of a map, there’s no frame of reference.[/QUOTE]

I politely disagree. Names will come with time.

Here are 5 I can think of!

Founder’s office. Bottom entrance to courtyard. Top entrance to courtyard. (All on FT) The vent (Added after 30 second mark)

Left and right ramp ways. Second story. Submarine entrance room. Submarine balcony. The bar (Labs)

That was in 30 seconds. I’m certain we will make more. These names simplify with time. We may make our own ones up.

I remember crossfire in socom. There was a room that had nothing to do with fish, but they called it the fish market. Everyone knew that is what it was.

I think the community should be expected to make a little up. It will come with time. But I do believe that this is a small issue.


(AmishWarMachine) #4

Frankie,

What you describe is exactly that I like about the two new levels.

You’re right. Right now, it’s nigh impossible to describe where you were, where you are, or where you’re headed. Wait until people familiarize themselves with every nook and cranny of the map (like they did about a week after release). Wait until the meta-game establishes tactics and tendencies.

At that point, if we’re all still clueless as to how we differentiate one place from another… then I could probably agree with you. But I truly think time and experience will fix the seeming ambiguity.


(DLC out early June!?) #5

[QUOTE=AmishWarMachine;364664]Frankie,

What you describe is exactly that I like about the two new levels.

You’re right. Right now, it’s nigh impossible to describe where you were, where you are, or where you’re headed. Wait until people familiarize themselves with every nook and cranny of the map (like they did about a week after release). Wait until the meta-game establishes tactics and tendencies.

At that point, if we’re all still clueless as to how we differentiate one place from another… then I could probably agree with you. But I truly think time and experience will fix the seeming ambiguity.[/QUOTE]

Yea no kidding… you must be clueless…How hard is it to remember a map with such small choke points?


(RabidAnubis) #6

If anything, at this point that will be the downfall of this game. The fact some people will know the meta game and some won’t. Sigh.

That’s why I suggested the reward/blog system so the people who really cared about Brink could teach it to newer players and not scare them.


(sereNADE) #7

Does the HE charge follow a trail of cookies or do you have to goad it along “here boy, atta boy!”


(Exedore) #8

I actually agree with a lot of points that the OP makes, but it’s not as simple as calling it poor design… it’s a encompassing production issue. If overall visual fidelity of the maps was reduced, more memory can be dedicated for unique assets per area, differentiating them better… memory is the key constraint with what you’re asking for. Overall both of the DLC levels push the technical limits of the game a lot harder than the shipping ones, because we had more experience polishing and optimizing them.

And… Terminal has a hangar? :confused:


(Nexolate) #9

I have to admit, I still get a little lost due to the similarly styled environments. That being said though, once I got my bearings it became much easier to navigate and the maps really do look fantastic at times.

Regards,
Nexo


(DrD3ath) #10

Bit like being lost driving in London :smiley:


(Codine) #11

The lab is nice after you get past the first area, but after that it the map is so short. There’s like 2 or 3 extra rooms after the first explosive charge.

And as for Founders tower…that whole map is a disaster. Cool to look at, not good to play.


(AnthonyDa) #12

PC gamers disagree with that.


(Nexolate) #13

I’ve had a few gos on it now, what would you say is the problem with it?
Personally I enjoy it because there’s a lot of different routes to approach an objective, makes the Attacker’s job a whole lot wasier.

Can’t really do much about that. It’s a multi-platform game and it’d take more time and resources to create alternate/exclusive versions for PC players.

Regards,
Nexo


(FireWorks) #14

You are not entitled to speak for all of them.


(zenstar) #15

Especially since the massive differences in hardware means that for some PC users the statements are perfectly accurate.

Perhaps he could ammend it to something like “PC users with upper end PCs and a kinda douchey attitude towards non-pc gamers would disagree with you, if it weren’t so mainstream to do so. And any PC gamers with this attitude that do disagree are doing it ironically.”


(Humate) #16

Here’s a test for you: can you, without mentioning an interactive object (machine gun emplacement, objective, command post, etc.), describe a location on a map? How about 5 locations on any map?

Are you comming with rands, or people you know?
If its the latter, and being able to comm everything in a pub game is important to you - what you can do is actually label certain parts of the map with your mates, instead of trying to describe what you see on the map.

This is what comp teams do. Well the organised ones anyway.


(AnthonyDa) #17

[quote=zenstar;364825]Especially since the massive differences in hardware means that for some PC users the statements are perfectly accurate.

Perhaps he could ammend it to something like “PC users with upper end PCs and a kinda douchey attitude towards non-pc gamers would disagree with you, if it weren’t so mainstream to do so. And any PC gamers with this attitude that do disagree are doing it ironically.”[/quote]
IIRC, Xbox and PS3 have 256MB of RAM (ok maybe 512MB).
Any PC has at least 2GB+ of RAM, even the olds one (at least the one having a GPU supporting OpenGL 3, which is required to run BRINK).

So yeah, BRINK is dumbed down for consoles …


(Smoochy) #18

[QUOTE=Exedore;364778]I actually agree with a lot of points that the OP makes, but it’s not as simple as calling it poor design… it’s a encompassing production issue. If overall visual fidelity of the maps was reduced, more memory can be dedicated for unique assets per area, differentiating them better… memory is the key constraint with what you’re asking for. Overall both of the DLC levels push the technical limits of the game a lot harder than the shipping ones, because we had more experience polishing and optimizing them.

And… Terminal has a hangar? :confused:[/QUOTE]

ah, so limiting because of consoles then? :slight_smile:

i first found maps in brink confusing, but after a few tries they are fine. i do keep finding new routes on some maps, which i think is cool. i actually like most of the brink maps.

im genuinely amazed that stuff even runs on consoles with <1gb ram. i have 4gb ram in my gaming pc and it rarely ever uses more then 2gb for any game.


(wolfnemesis75) #19

[QUOTE=Frankie Godskin;364645]
…because nothing stands out. The maps have no identity. You might be able to name one or two spots per map that match my intial question, but if you try to describe specific sections of a map, there’s no frame of reference.[/QUOTE]
Some of this is a case of not playing the maps enough to learn them. And venting about it. Spend a bit more time letting the new stuff germinate in your mind before writing a book report on what you believe is “poor design”. The flip side to that coin is, so far I feel the DLC maps look, and play really well. I have little trouble figuring out where to go. :slight_smile:


(coolstory) #20

STFU…Who made you the voice of pc gamers? I like the maps…so many flanking spots and playing light jumping around the map is fun.