Please design for gameplay, not for flavour


(jazevec) #1

Hey

I think W:ET and ET:QW had some flaws in design. Parts of these games seemed to be designed for flavour, not for gameplay.

  1. Sniper the sociopath
    W:ET and ET:QW gave sniper rifle to Covert Op. This is unlike RTCW which gave Mauser to Soldier. The problem ? Covert Op in both games had tools which were most useful up close, and worked well with teammates around:
  • satchel/camera was good up close, almost no use for a sniper
  • disguises were great to stab that disarming engineer, or stab mg42 soldier right before your teammates attacked.
  • smoke had obvious team benefits, it could potentially clear the way for entire team (admittedly, it was too thin to be very useful).
  • Radar in ET:QW was best placed near frontline to maximize its range. Either way far away from the campers’ hill
  • hacking worked up close
  • awesome scrambler grenades only worked up close

Moral of the story: I think sniper rifle should be given to the most sociopathic class. A class with no or little other duties. This way teammates won’t be yelling at him to do X or Y (deploy Radar, pick a disguise and open door). There was some (probably unintentional) wisdom in giving Mauser to Soldier in RTCW.

  1. Rambo medics in W:ET
    In ET:QW they were only kept in check by vehicles, really. But generally I mean this: make sure class description indicates function !
  • amazingly, players use the toughest class for combat. If you want them to mostly use Soldier for that, make Soldier best at absorbing damage !
  • players use the most self-sufficient class for behind the lines disruption. Please give Covert Op some (limited) healing ability, for example healing for kills at close range, healing for getting disguises, getting ammo from corpses etc. It’s a pity covert op was much less self-sufficient than medics in most games. Lone wolf class should get self healing and self ammo restock.
  1. Give covert op / infiltrator weapons which actually reward stealth. Knife stab is one. Fg42 was okay because you were at a disadvantage if you didn’t manage to sneak up close. Handgrenades would make an ideal covert op weapon, because they rely heavily on stealth and you’re dead meat if you’re caught with grenades in hand (just take care of spam !). And last, as crazy as it sounds… shotguns and flamethrowers would make good covert op weapons because they require stealth to use effectively.
    Basically covert op/stealth class should have specialised weapons, which work best in right circiumstances. Using Quake Live / Q3 as example…
  • Plasma gun can be considered stealth weapon. It has awesome damage potential but only really shines if you can make sure your opponent move predictably (tight corridor, shiny item, distracted by teammate, narrow ledge, doesn’t see you)
  • Shotgun, especially in latest patch, can be considered stealth weapon because it sucks at anything but close range.
    Note that typical sniper rifle does NOT reward stealth. It rewards sitting on a hill, and snipers often don’t care if something can see them because they’re out of range.

(Slade05) #2

Rambo covie is the best design proposition so far, grats. :smiley:


(tokamak) #3

I like this. Simply making your own health packs less effective for yourself (ever tried to treat your own bullet wounds? No? Thought so!) will solve the rambo medic and make him a support class again.

I’m not too keen on covert ops with flamethrowers (seriously!?) though. I rather see varied grenades for him (and the soldier).


(DarkangelUK) #4

How about a silenced shotgun just like the one from No Country For Old Men?


(tokamak) #5

I don’t think there’s a word that would describe how awesome that is.


(RosOne) #6

[QUOTE=jazevec;198266]Hey

I think W:ET and ET:QW had some flaws in design(…)[/QUOTE]

Hi

I think W:ET and ET:QW had some flaws too, but none of those which you mentioned above. I so wanted ragdoll physics, but both games have none :frowning:

I’m happy BRINK will feature ragdoll physics though…

Anyway, maybe SD should just call the classes “Class A”, “Class B”, “Class C”, etc. so there’d be no confusion for people demanding that a certain class uses a certain weapon.

Think about it, those Security or Resistance guys don’t go to their boss and tell him they want to be sniper or medic. They just grab a weapon and do their job, kill. That’s it, no need for naming them.

P.S. If the PG/SG in QL is a “stealth weapon” then the RL is a health pack… 7 health…


(jazevec) #7

[QUOTE=tokamak;198273]I like this. Simply making your own health packs less effective for yourself (ever tried to treat your own bullet wounds? No? Thought so!) will solve the rambo medic and make him a support class again.

I’m not too keen on covert ops with flamethrowers (seriously!?) though. I rather see varied grenades for him (and the soldier).[/QUOTE]

  1. Medpacks less effective for self healing would likely mean rambo medics would just use more of them to heal themselves. As a result they would have even fewer for teammates. What could work would be health bonus for healing/reviving a teammate, but I doubt SD is going to do that.

  2. That’s the whole point of this thread. Flamethrower may not fit flavour-wise, but deffinitely would when it comes to gameplay. With flamethrower, you have to be stealthy to survive, to kill anything that’s not a teammate. Silencer, I think, also belongs to “flavour” and “gimmick” categories. It doesn’t reward stealthy approach. If you hear a teamate shooting and dying, you’re going to come closer and investigate anyway.

I’m pretty sure Brink won’t have flamethrower, though. ET:QW didn’t have it, and I guess SD is going to placate people criticizing flamer for using a different skill set.


(Exedore) #8

Weapons are linked to body types, not class. You’re free to select whatever weapons you want provided your character build can carry them, and you can set up a few loadouts to switch around in-game if you like.

I wish I could address some of the other concerns mentioned, but it’s too early for those kind of specifics. The issues raised are in our minds, though!


(Rahdo) #9

Yes that would be cool, wouldn’t it? :wink:

The other points are all good as well, and as exedore says, we are keeping an eye on these exact problems, especially the rambo medic…


(tokamak) #10

I thought weapons were limited to body type to some extend. If Soldiers in ET were weapon specialists, then what are soldiers in Brink? The guys with the explosive charges? Is that it?

Sure they could do that but at least it makes the medic a much less appealing rambo class. A short maximum HP increase or a damage reduction whenever you revive or heal a teammate (though revive should obviously award more) is a very nice idea as well, this would only contribute to all the brilliant ‘resurrect an entire room’ situations in quake wars.


(RosOne) #11

Everyone is a soldier in Brink


(tokamak) #12

Yeah, so what could the soldier class contribute to the team?


(Sssaap) #13

Afaik there will be no long ranged maps so no need for a sniper rifle what so ever?!

Since it’s going to be a close combat featuring game I’m not even sure if a shotgun might be a good idea, since people would expect it to do massive close combat damage (and a weapon that only needs 1 hit would just be imbalanced:C)

(And on fueldump sniper was being useful, also able to use one of it’s most remarkable features getting far too few attention these days (in any map): the ability to spot mines!!!)


(tokamak) #14

It has been confirmed there will be a ‘sniper-like’ gun in the game.


(Floris) #15

@OP, you seem to forget in ET:QW soldiers actually serve a purpose, they are the demolition men and are supposed to take out turrets and heavy vehicles. If you give them a sniper rifle, they won’t be doing that stuff.

Anyway, I think sniper rifles are heavily overrated anyway, just make sure there is a more accurate gun with better zoom which is also balanced in close combat, or have a gun for which you can switch mode to sniper/smg or something.


(DarkangelUK) #16

Single shot nearsite scope and burst fire from the hip and ironsite?


(Exedore) #17

While it’s nothing like ETQW, there are still some spots where extra range would be beneficial. I doubt an entire team with them would be very effective, however.


(tokamak) #18

Even ‘urban’ levels in ET like Goldrush had enough opportunities for snipers indeed.


(radiator) #19

i hope we don’t see loner soldiers sniping far away and giving ammo to their selfs all the game xP or loner engineers, upgrading their snipers for extra damage.
or even a soldier and a engineer together sniping! soldier giving out ammo, enginner upgrading and constructing a turret to prevent backstabs! :eek:


(Rahdo) #20

Plenty. He’s got a lot of unique abilities… really looking forward to being able to talk about them soon!