Playing Fragger with M4A1

(Lumi) #1

So I’ve noticed this happening a lot. Many high level players gravitate towards what is currently the strongest and easiest loadout of them all. Fragger with M4A1. The M4A1 is the strongest weapon of the game right now, especially since all the ECHO data given by newcomers in Skyhammers mainly say that the M4A1 sucks. This is why it has been buffed to death. Then, the strongest merc that can use it being Fragger there are so many high level players playing this particular loadout and I feel that it shouldn’t be promoted.

Just as the Dreiss’s precision got nerfed back in the day as it was really powerful in strong players, I feel that the M4A1 and particularly the Fragger combo should be nerfed as well. It is really annoying to see that you can be doing very well with another class and still a Fragger with M4A1 will be king of the hill, because he has so many advantages that no other merc can compensate for.

I know some mercs are dedicated killers, but I believe that SD’s policy was to put people out of their comfort zones and to add attractiveness to other mercs as well. Now there is only that particular loadout that high level players gravitate to and it repeats the same thing that many other games have done and which to me is a capital sin: remove diversity.

In Modern Warfare 2 you will only find players with UMP45, in MW3 you’ll only find the mp7, etc. Always just the strongest weapon. I also agree with the argument that there will always be one particular weapon that outshines others, but especially in DB one has the possibility to balance it out with weaker mercs. So I would really enjoy to see some proper balancing there, in order to increase diversity and to remove the need to play one setup only to be competitive or just have an edge above other.

(sentimentalDime) #2

Many high level players moved to the K-121 with the CW update, especially because of the indirect nerfs to Explodydendron and Unshakeable.

(Lumi) #3

Still, high level players stick with Fragger because he has a high resistance (maybe his HP should be nerfed?) In any case, I rarely see a high level (higher than 30) play anything but Fragger. Why is that?

(Captain_Forward) #4

I’d be happy with swapping M4 and Timik in Fragger’s loadouts. Easier to use weapon for lighter classes, harder to use weapon for heavier class.

(Lumi) #5

Makes perfect sense.

BTW Arthur Dent was asking how you were doing.

(Dawnlazy) #6

I don’t think M4 needs any nerfs, first because default Skyhammer is one of the main reasons why this game isn’t p2w, second because it’s more interesting to buff other things to near M4 level. Plus the weapon itself isn’t really OP, it’s just very reliable in most situations, great at being average in everything, but not exactly the ultimate weapon in any specific scenario.

(Amerika) #7

Your post runs entirely counter as to why the meta switched to the M4 a few months ago. It was almost entirely due to Unshakeable letting players survive/not be gibbed on grenades which have been nerfed heavily over time and now there isn’t anymore gibbing. And many of the K121 users from the past who were forced to switch are now back to the K121 due to Unshakeable being less of a factor in a game that doesn’t have explosive gibs.

The M4 is a great gun but the K121 is just flat out better at the high end. And I am also not a fan of nerfing guns that many people feel are pretty great overall as they are instead of buffing/fixing guns that don’t perform as well. Pissing everyone off and making weapons worse is typically always a bad idea as witnessed in multiple other games including, apparently, SD’s last game…Brink (might need some correction there).

(Lumi) #8

I don’t really get the entire unshakable thing. Could someone please explain what it was supposed to do and what it doesn’t do as well anymore or whatever seems to be the problem.

Now regarding the k121, I have played it as well as the M4A1, and the K-121 is way less precise and has a much longer reload time, making it in my opinion much less effective. The M4A1 has simply no drawbacks. And I believe that every weapon needs to have its pros and it cons. If it has no cons (such as the M4A1) then there is really no reason to play anything else than that weapon. Therefore nerfing it is required imo. If making other weapons be equivalent, then you end up having only weapons without drawback, and they end up all being sensibly the same weapon, making the game uninteresting due to lack of variety. At least that’s what I think.

(Dawnlazy) #9

[quote=“Lumi;112712”]I don’t really get the entire unshakable thing. Could someone please explain what it was supposed to do and what it doesn’t do as well anymore or whatever seems to be the problem.

Now regarding the k121, I have played it as well as the M4A1, and the K-121 is way less precise and has a much longer reload time, making it in my opinion much less effective. The M4A1 has simply no drawbacks. And I believe that every weapon needs to have its pros and it cons. If it has no cons (such as the M4A1) then there is really no reason to play anything else than that weapon. Therefore nerfing it is required imo. If making other weapons be equivalent, then you end up having only weapons without drawback, and they end up all being sensibly the same weapon, making the game uninteresting due to lack of variety. At least that’s what I think.[/quote]

Fragger’s nades used to do 150 damage at the core and instagib on kills. Unshakeable made it possible to always survive another Fragger’s nade from full health. Also K-121 needs the K51 card just to be playable because of Drilled and Focus, whilst the M4A1 is already fine straight out of the box and comes with the nice bonus of Explodydendron + Unshakeable. But the M4 isn’t the best at everything, at close range it can be outgunned by smgs and at longer ranges damage drop off kicks in since it’s the rifle with the shortest effective range.

(Amerika) #10

[quote=“Lumi;112712”]I don’t really get the entire unshakable thing. Could someone please explain what it was supposed to do and what it doesn’t do as well anymore or whatever seems to be the problem.

Now regarding the k121, I have played it as well as the M4A1, and the K-121 is way less precise and has a much longer reload time, making it in my opinion much less effective. The M4A1 has simply no drawbacks. And I believe that every weapon needs to have its pros and it cons. If it has no cons (such as the M4A1) then there is really no reason to play anything else than that weapon. Therefore nerfing it is required imo. If making other weapons be equivalent, then you end up having only weapons without drawback, and they end up all being sensibly the same weapon, making the game uninteresting due to lack of variety. At least that’s what I think.[/quote]

What @Dawnrazor said. Also, the K121 due to it’s power and the size of the belt (55 rounds) means, once you learn it, you can easily do heavy damage at almost all ranges while also having plenty of ammo to do it. It takes longer to learn proper usage of the K121 but it is the better gun overall.

Back in the day (as in 6+ months ago haha) when Fragger used to have more powerful grenades, his grenades flew twice as far and twice as fast and he had two of them. Not to mention the undocumented explosive change where explosive damage no longer goes through people (so if somebody is in front of you during a blast you might survive where in the past you would not).

One of the only ways to deal with this was Unshakeable. Nobody has ever really cared about Explodydendron even though it is nice…it didn’t factor into people using the card. It was all Unshakeable. Surviving or at least not getting overkill gibbed was > the slight killing power advantage of using the K121. But now that the game has changed so much in regards to grenade nerfs and mechanic changes people can now actually use what they want. K121 or the M4 depending on what they personally enjoy/are good with.

(ASTOUNDINGSHELL) #11

the K 121 has a bigger reward for skill

(HoopleDoople) #12

Am I the only Fragger that uses the BR-16? I love the accuracy and not being so dependent on allies to feed me ammo. After the bug-fix its been easily outperforming the M4 for me.

(DaaDog) #13

Yes… yes you are…

(Eox) #14

Actually, unless you pack it with the spares augment, it’ll make you highly dependent of ammo : missing a burst is kind of punishing. Most of Fragger used to not use the BR-16 due to the ammo issue.

However, if you have a potent support in your team, or at least if you have the spares augment, BR-16 is pretty darn powerful ! It’s like a shotgun, but without the crippling range issues, more meant for mid range, but efficient at long range too.

(Lumi) #15

I’m still confused. If unshakable was supposed to make you survive a grenade’s gibbing, wasn’t that a good augment for any Fragger opponent and not Fragger himself? I feel like I’m missing something.

Furthermore, I can get behind the fact that the k-121 gives you more reward for more skill, that’s how I think weapons should be balanced, yet that doesn’t change the fact that for the same amount of little effort the m4a1 will perform better. that is why I believe the m4a1 should be nerfed. If you need less effort to master it, then it shouldn’t reward you as well either.

Now on another side note I always found it ridiculous that the hochfir and the k121 have both the same clip size but different reload times…

(Eox) #16

Hochfir does not share the firepower of the K-121, that’s why.

K-121 is something like 135 DPS if I remember correctly, while Hochfir is 122 DPS. One is clearly much more powerful than the other.

(Lumi) #17

Hochfir does not share the firepower of the K-121, that’s why.

K-121 is something like 135 DPS if I remember correctly, while Hochfir is 122 DPS. One is clearly much more powerful than the other.

[/quote]

Yeah, the hochfir, since you can hit bullets on the head with much more reliability than the high spread k121…

(Gung-ho) #18

The K121 is superior to the M4A1 however in pubs that superiority isn’t necessarily required and the slight mobility gain of the M4A1 when equipped can be more valuable (plus the augments on M62 are good).

The M4A1 basically fulfills its purpose - it is the champion all-rounder. Despite superior options in most situations typically speaking near enough is good enough (and if it isn’t usually Fragger’s extra hp makes up for it + grenades).

(Amerika) #19

[quote=“Lumi;112889”]I’m still confused. If unshakable was supposed to make you survive a grenade’s gibbing, wasn’t that a good augment for any Fragger opponent and not Fragger himself? I feel like I’m missing something.

Furthermore, I can get behind the fact that the k-121 gives you more reward for more skill, that’s how I think weapons should be balanced, yet that doesn’t change the fact that for the same amount of little effort the m4a1 will perform better. that is why I believe the m4a1 should be nerfed. If you need less effort to master it, then it shouldn’t reward you as well either.

Now on another side note I always found it ridiculous that the hochfir and the k121 have both the same clip size but different reload times…[/quote]

Not every merc has access to Unshakeable. And it was a numbers game too. A direct hit frag grenade, which in the past was much easier to do, did exactly 150 damage which is Fragger’s HP. No other merc could survive one either with Unshakeable or without it. Fragger, with Unshakeable, could then eat a nade and live. So it was at first used to survive a direct hit but it also helps him from getting gibbed as well. Which, you’re right, does help everyone but it helps Fragger a lot more since he is the one who used to get grenades almost exclusively thrown at him as team’s rallied their whole offense around him.

Today is a different story with the grenade nerfs, mechanic changes and playstyle changes due to them.

You should go watch some good players with the K121 and see what they do with it. You might not be firing it correctly to get as much out of it. It’s a gun that rewards learning it. You fire it differently than any other gun in the game. It’s one of the few guns you ADS mid fight to finish with a lot. And due to the lower RoF but higher power and high ammo count per belt you can do a lot with very little ammo.

(FalC_16) #20

Yes… yes you are…[/quote]

no he is not. I use BR16 with Fragger too. It wrecks people. Now after the last patch the burst rifles are again competitive against other guns.