Player Reputation System

(tokamak) #21

Well by all means, here’s an excellent place to tell what has been done wrong or has been lacking.

(SockDog) #22

[quote=tokamak;200142]I really think people shouldn’t have that power no. Behaviour should be regulated through in-game features (xp-farming should be an oxymoron if you have proper algorithms for xp rewards) not through mob-rule.

People especially gamers can turn blatantly into Nazis if give the powers.[/quote]

The rigid regulations are easily worked around. The harder you tighten the regulations the less freedom you give regular players. It’s a lose/lose for people who just want to play the game. The same goes for XP farming, blaming the dev is a pretty cheap shot.

Gaming IMO is a social activity, why is everyone against holding people socially accountable? Pages and pages of stats but not one says whether you’re actually a good person to play with because you can’t equate that to a number.

As for Nazis, come on. I don’t think anything can be any worse than the current system. Oh and while I think about it, if Brink adopts a similar L4D server hopping system you can kiss goodbye to your admins. :eek:

(Senyin) #23

I agree and I’m all for holding people socially accountable.
I really wish there was a good system that weeds out the asshats
(Only the real bad ones!)
But I really don’t see how one can make a watertight system.

Maybe it’s time someone developed a AdminBot.
That functions like an admin and will be standard on every server,
in the background, kinda like punkbuster.
Lets call it SpyBot or Alice :smiley:

(tokamak) #24

[QUOTE=SockDog;200154]The rigid regulations are easily worked around. The harder you tighten the regulations the less freedom you give regular players. It’s a lose/lose for people who just want to play the game. The same goes for XP farming, blaming the dev is a pretty cheap shot.
[/QUOTE]

No it absolutely isn’t. The xp should go to the best contributions, simplistic xp rewards leads to perverse incentives. It’s a matter of economics here really. And it doesn’t inhibit anyone, you can still do whatever you want, you just won’t get as much xp as the people who are real assets to the team. Pure freedom.

The only two sanctions should be with teamkilling and cheating, two very objective actions. The current teamkill system works perfectly, the player who got team killed decides whether or not the player gets to be punished and for cheating there’s punkbuster or ideally an even better anti-cheat system.

All other behaviour is justified.

EXACTLY, it should NEVER be equated to a number. If you add a value to virtue it becomes meaningless. And there are numerous studies that prove that doing so only achieves an opposite effect; people trying to cheat the system.

Barry Schwartz would convey this point more elaborately.

(SockDog) #25

[quote=Senyin;200168]I agree and I’m all for holding people socially accountable.
I really wish there was a good system that weeds out the asshats
(Only the real bad ones!)
But I really don’t see how one can make a watertight system.

Maybe it’s time someone developed a AdminBot.
That functions like an admin and will be standard on every server,
in the background, kinda like punkbuster.
Lets call it SpyBot or Alice :D[/quote]

Open to ideas but glad someone agrees that general asshattery should be address in some form or another. Online gaming has grown greatly and the culture evolved and yet nothing at all has been done to address the problem.

You’re saying don’t attach a number to behaviour but it’s fine to have a single, global, unmoving, unthinking rule to address it? How is that not attaching a 0 or 1 to a player with total disregard for everything else they are doing on the server?

I’m saying allow each of your team mates to determine your worth on their own basis. I think I’m a pretty good judge of whether you’ve helped or hindered me during the game and your personal justification, opinion or manipulation of the game mechanics means nothing in regards to that.

This goes beyond TKing and cheating. It extends to all sorts of anti-social douchery that people think is just fine because there is nothing anyone can really do about it.

(tokamak) #26

Do you have examples?

(Senyin) #27

[QUOTE=SockDog;200187]Open to ideas but glad someone agrees that general asshattery should be address in some form or another. Online gaming has grown greatly and the culture evolved and yet nothing at all has been done to address the problem.
[/QUOTE]

In my opinion:
Ignoring becomes tolerance, tolerance becomes acceptance, acceptance becomes normal.
I don’t want asshattery to become normal in online gaming.

The industry is still evolving fast indeed yet common courtesy and simple sportsmanship
seem to deteriorated at an even faster rate.
I think thats pretty sad.
I feel like people are forgetting the point of online gaming
in the first place. To have fun, relax, have some laughs together

At least for me it is, be it with bloodthirst and often stupid clumsiness,
but always with respect for my fellow gamers and undying love for my teammates =D

To be fair, ofcourse asshattery has not been ignored, reputationsystems have been
implemented. I hope Brink will have whatever system to at least do some “damage control”.

(tokamak) #28

I think there’s already a form of social control going actually. Brink has a bit of a facebook like system, where you can only voicechat with friends etc. It’s only when you’re not being a jerk you get enough friends to get some good games going. If nobody wants to be your friend you’re ending up being reliant on games started by other players.

MMORPGS have no reputation system, they ARE the reputation system. You don’t get anywhere if nobody likes you or if you’re a known ninja or scammer.

(SockDog) #29

I’ve listed them before and in other threads. Off the top of my head:

[ul]
[li]Idling or having a lengthy conversation during a game.[/li][li]XP Farming / Objective whoring.[/li][li]Team Stacking / Playing on a server clearly below your skill level.[/li][li]Trolling/Venting[/li][li]Natural born leaders/whiners[/li][li]Rage quitters[/li][li]Voting abuse (server take overs)[/li][li]General griefing behavior[/li][li]Team Killing[/li][li]Team Wounding[/li][li]Cheating[/li][/ul]

and for fun because they’d be valid for many people

[ul]
[li]Camping[/li][li]Vehicle whoring[/li][li]Base raping[/li][li]Suspected cheating[/li][li]Inappropriate name[/li][li]etc etc etc.[/li][/ul]

[quote=tokamak;200192]I think there’s already a form of social control going actually. Brink has a bit of a facebook like system, where you can only voicechat with friends etc. It’s only when you’re not being a jerk you get enough friends to get some good games going. If nobody wants to be your friend you’re ending up being reliant on games started by other players.

MMORPGS have no reputation system, they ARE the reputation system. You don’t get anywhere if nobody likes you or if you’re a known ninja or scammer.[/quote]

So what has changed between your objection to a system for people to say whether they think you’re a good/bad gamer, compared to a system that says I’d friend and play with you more/I’d not friend you if you paid me?

Both offer a 1to1 evaluation system based on your impact on someone elses game. The major differences that come to mind are the voting system is passive on a player level but has the scope to punish/reward at the userbase level. And that friending someone is a less passive connection you are making to another player. I may like people on a server but may not want to friend them.

I don’t play MMOs myself but I believe their hugely based on social interaction to begin with, being part of the group is part of the game, it is the reputation system. In an FPS however you don’t need to be part of a group, you can hop in and out of servers, doing what you please and with little to no repercussions.

[quote=Senyin;200191]In my opinion:
Ignoring becomes tolerance, tolerance becomes acceptance, acceptance becomes normal.
I don’t want asshattery to become normal in online gaming.[/quote]

Me neither. I don’t think this thread has ignited the enthusiasm I’d hoped for on that front. Perhaps I screwed up the concept I don’t know but I’m happy you said the above and hope SD, if not in Brink but their next game, look to see if they can’t do something to turn that sort of stuff around.

I feel like people are forgetting the point of online gaming
in the first place. To have fun, relax, have some laughs together

It’s what I play for 100%, fun. What marks the change in attitude most is when people justify taking out their real life issues in a multiplayer game. “Hey, I’m just blowing off steam, don’t take it so seriously”. Like all the other players are there for this one person’s psychological health.

At least for me it is, be it with bloodthirst and often stupid clumsiness,
but always with respect for my fellow gamers and undying love for my teammates =D

Yes respect. I think that’s one thing I left off the list above. I’d happily vote down someone who’s just generally disrespectful to the players on the server. I have no place for such negativity in a “game” that I “play”. :wink:

To be fair, ofcourse asshattery has not been ignored, reputationsystems have been
implemented. I hope Brink will have whatever system to at least do some “damage control”.

I don’t think until more people are vocal and fed up with their games being degraded by such behaviour will any developer serious look at addressing it. Of all the replies to this thread yours was the only one who acknowledged there was an issue there to look into at the very least. Guess we’re way into the acceptance and normal phase by now.

(Nail) #30

To my mind, you’re essentially saying the developers should take over from having refs/admins on the server. That to me calls for running the network, aka “SDNet”. But we all want dedicated servers to run as we see fit. It requires dedicated people to run a server, you need refs during peak times and they have to earn the job. Our site has run a fairly popular server since '04, it’s worked for us.

a voluntary voting system will always be open to abuse, just like stat systems, and therefore will cause much complaining, bitching and whining, not worth it imo.

(tokamak) #31

[QUOTE=SockDog;200199]I’ve listed them before and in other threads. Off the top of my head:

[ul]
[li]Idling or having a lengthy conversation during a game.[/li][li]XP Farming / Objective whoring.[/li][li]Team Stacking / Playing on a server clearly below your skill level.[/li][li]Trolling/Venting[/li][li]Natural born leaders/whiners[/li][li]Rage quitters[/li][li]Voting abuse (server take overs)[/li][li]General griefing behavior[/li][li]Team Killing[/li][li]Team Wounding[/li][li]Cheating[/li][/ul]

and for fun because they’d be valid for many people

[ul]
[li]Camping[/li][li]Vehicle whoring[/li][li]Base raping[/li][li]Suspected cheating[/li][li]Inappropriate name[/li][li]etc etc etc.[/li][/ul]
[/QUOTE]

Wow if a reputation system is going to be used for that then I doubt I would even buy Brink.

A few of those can be solved with in-game measures (like cheating, teamkilling, even chat has been solved in Brink) and the rest (almost every single one) is just pathetic whining. You’re talking about handing out permanent sanctions to people. Instead of just kicking someone out of a server you also have to be petty about it and punish someone even more.

So what has changed between your objection to a system for people to say whether they think you’re a good/bad gamer, compared to a system that says I’d friend and play with you more/I’d not friend you if you paid me?

Both offer a 1to1 evaluation system based on your impact on someone elses game. The major differences that come to mind are the voting system is passive on a player level but has the scope to punish/reward at the userbase level. And that friending someone is a less passive connection you are making to another player. I may like people on a server but may not want to friend them.

Not liking someone is all fine, but if you’re influencing it as a tangible status then it won’t be long before admins simply start kicking people with low reputation ratings. I’m fine with kicking people out of a server if you don’t like them, but then smearing them for life just because you don’t like the way they play is just going way too far.

(SockDog) #32

Used for? Do you even understand what I’m talking about?

A few of those can be solved with in-game measures (like cheating, teamkilling, even chat has been solved in Brink) and the rest (almost every single one) is just pathetic whining. You’re talking about handing out permanent sanctions to people. Instead of just kicking someone out of a server you also have to be petty about it and punish someone even more.

Whining? Permanent sanctions?

No, if your behaviour detracts from my enjoyment of a game I should be able to identify you. Likewise if you’re a great player. If you do it to such as extent that you have piles of bad rep then perhaps you need to face up to the fact you’re a anti-social cock, adjust your behaviour or stop playing on servers where you disagree with the rules.

BTW - VOIP spam/abuse isn’t “solved”. You either weaken the purpose of a friends list by adding anyone who doesn’t piss you off or you switch on global VOIP to hear everyone on your team. SD have just gone with the former as it’s less likely you’ll immediately bump into a racist homophobe.

Not liking someone is all fine, but if you’re influencing it as a tangible status then it won’t be long before admins simply start kicking people with low reputation ratings. I’m fine with kicking people out of a server if you don’t like them, but then smearing them for life just because you don’t like the way they play is just going way too far.

And why shouldn’t they. You seem to be suggesting that playing on a server with annoying pricks is fine. Sure I see a situation where those same pricks give you bad rep themselves. But you’ve said yourself that you find a group of friends to play with if you’re not a nob, don’t you think they’ll also be giving you good rep too?

Sorry but I can’t help feeling your only argument against this is that douche bag behaviour should be tollerated because it can’t be defined and controlled in a game rule. That you fear a majority will single you out as “doing it wrong” and have to adjust or p*ss off somewhere else. That having and being accountable for simple manners doesn’t apply online because there is no persistence allowed for it, only K/D or hours played.

I’m not going to waste any more time talking with you on this. If you don’t like the idea that’s cool, I’ll enjoy griefing you in Brink. :slight_smile:

(tokamak) #33

I’ve simply been way too often on the receiving end of mob behaviour forming silly rules. They’ll kick you for the weirdest reasons. Every game develops it’s own unwritten rules sooner or later, like base camping, a total arbitrary ‘sin’ you can commit in a game while it’s highly subjective whether it’s wrong or not.

(Dormamu) #34

Implementing this, you will assure that many innocent people will be harmed.
And when we punish the innocent all the good that this System will do… fade to nothing.
The idea is good… but it lacks the technology, until your game avatar is you, as in… you will put your ID card in, be verified by the system… then play, until then… is a nice dream.
my 2c

(SockDog) #35

Yet gamers are judged by XP, K/D or some other singular aspect and highly manipulated statistics? This at least would be a system based on peer review even if some of those peers are idiots, a system based not on a statistic but on your sociability and conduct.

Sure maybe I’m being too utopian about it’s correct use but then I’m not hearing much in the ways of how it can be abused.

I’ve not even mentioned how or when a bad rep might affect you. I’m sure there would be some maths there and yes a gaping hole for manipulation. If what I’m suggesting falls down anywhere, it would be here. Where we attach a value or action to the reputation.

(tokamak) #36

Oh I fully agree that those ridiculous medal achievements on the QW stats page contributed heavily to idiots farming xp.