Phantom was nerfed to much

(Amerika) #21

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;57292”][quote=“Amerika;57260”][quote=“Stormrage;55424”]The problem was nerfing a merc before his counter(s) were released and not listening to people who actively play or played him a ton.

Competitively he was fine, not OP. He was only OP at killing newbies and unaware campers.[/quote]

This game is not based on counter-play. The devs, multiple times, have mentioned they do not want RPS gameplay. Sure, there will be bad matchups but not outright intentional counters. Games like TF2 work because they only have a few classes and you’re supposed to have all of them on the field at the same time. That isn’t true for DB.

And Phantom isn’t a melee only merc despite what many people seem to think. He is a flanking gun merc who can melee better than other mercs. Not a melee only merc. If he was melee only he would have just his Katana and MAYBE a pistol. But instead he actually has access to some of the best guns in the game.[/quote]

Actually that bit of TF2 is not true either, the way certain classes are designed you can’t have them in game at all times and be useful.

Spy for example you can’t play him 24/7 and still be effective, he relies on tricking the enemy and exploting their mistakes, and after some time they catch up and figure out how to deal with you.

I honestly can see the mercs in this game being a lot more versatile, you’ll always need a medic, you’ll always need a support guy to supply ammo and take down the EV, and of course you’ll always need an engineer.

Though with the Recon and Assault classes…I think it’s a different story, and Splash Damage has a way to go with them. For example, when Stoker gets added…will he have the M4? And if so…doesn’t that mean he can replace Fragger? Sure he has 30 less health but he also has incendiary nades which can be used on the EV and on people, and has an ammo station.

Not saying he will, but the meta is always changing, and comp players will always gravitate toward the most versatile and low risky mercs, mechanics, weapons, etc to get an advantage.[/quote]

That’s true but it’s still applicable. TF2 is built and balanced around counter-play and reacting to those counters. DB is not built like that. You can do everything in DB…just some classes do it better. It’s not built for, “Oh shoot, they are running X so we better have somebody switch to Y” counter system.

(watsyurdeal) #22

[quote=“Amerika;57318”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;57292”][quote=“Amerika;57260”][quote=“Stormrage;55424”]The problem was nerfing a merc before his counter(s) were released and not listening to people who actively play or played him a ton.

Competitively he was fine, not OP. He was only OP at killing newbies and unaware campers.[/quote]

This game is not based on counter-play. The devs, multiple times, have mentioned they do not want RPS gameplay. Sure, there will be bad matchups but not outright intentional counters. Games like TF2 work because they only have a few classes and you’re supposed to have all of them on the field at the same time. That isn’t true for DB.

And Phantom isn’t a melee only merc despite what many people seem to think. He is a flanking gun merc who can melee better than other mercs. Not a melee only merc. If he was melee only he would have just his Katana and MAYBE a pistol. But instead he actually has access to some of the best guns in the game.[/quote]

Actually that bit of TF2 is not true either, the way certain classes are designed you can’t have them in game at all times and be useful.

Spy for example you can’t play him 24/7 and still be effective, he relies on tricking the enemy and exploting their mistakes, and after some time they catch up and figure out how to deal with you.

I honestly can see the mercs in this game being a lot more versatile, you’ll always need a medic, you’ll always need a support guy to supply ammo and take down the EV, and of course you’ll always need an engineer.

Though with the Recon and Assault classes…I think it’s a different story, and Splash Damage has a way to go with them. For example, when Stoker gets added…will he have the M4? And if so…doesn’t that mean he can replace Fragger? Sure he has 30 less health but he also has incendiary nades which can be used on the EV and on people, and has an ammo station.

Not saying he will, but the meta is always changing, and comp players will always gravitate toward the most versatile and low risky mercs, mechanics, weapons, etc to get an advantage.[/quote]

That’s true but it’s still applicable. TF2 is built and balanced around counter-play and reacting to those counters. DB is not built like that. You can do everything in DB…just some classes do it better. It’s not built for, “Oh shoot, they are running X so we better have somebody switch to Y” counter system.[/quote]

I would say that each merc within a specified category is like a flavor of a playstyle.

For example, you like doing a specific job? Cool, how would you like it? Aggressive and up in the front line? Or more passive and at the back?

Like Sawbonez vs Aura, Sawbonez is defintely a more aggressive merc, but Aura is more…well, she’s not built for the same way of playing. She’s really great on defense or holds where the goal is to maintain a position, whereas Sawbonez excels in trying to take them.

Now consider Vasiili vs Phantom, the way I see it Vasilli is more back of the line merc, he sits in a spot with a great sightline and picks people off. While Phantom should be a master of getting in people’s faces and slicing them to bits, or turning them into swiss cheese with his SMG.

I feel like they have the idea right on where they wanna go with Phantom, but maybe not executed properly.

(Amerika) #23

He could definitely use some changes. Changes I’ve been vocal about (including making his cloak go back to the way it was originally). But for entirely different reasons than you.

You might see things that way but the devs specifically stated (including the lead designer, Exedore), on multiple dev streams as this is a common question, that they do not want Rock, Paper, Scissors gameplay.

Also, Phantom could be consider a master of flanking and being able to spot where people are while still being able to get away (cloak/absorb). Ever think of that? Basically, it would put him in the same recon spot as Vasilli but a front lines recon. I’m not saying that should be his role but he definitely fills it. He’s also very good at making sure he gets off the first shot or the first shot that counts (absorb).

(Ronan) #24

[quote=“Amerika;57350”]He could definitely use some changes. Changes I’ve been vocal about (including making his cloak go back to the way it was originally). But for entirely different reasons than you.

You might see things that way but the devs specifically stated (including the lead designer, Exedore), on multiple dev streams as this is a common question, that they do not want Rock, Paper, Scissors gameplay.

Also, Phantom could be consider a master of flanking and being able to spot where people are while still being able to get away (cloak/absorb). Ever think of that? Basically, it would put him in the same recon spot as Vasilli but a front lines recon. I’m not saying that should be his role but he definitely fills it. He’s also very good at making sure he gets off the first shot or the first shot that counts (absorb).[/quote]

I’d actually be interested to hear why you want his cloak to go back to way it was, as I am indeed intrigued. I’d like the cloak to go back to a decent standpoint as to where I can do what he was advertised as. Sneaking through the enemy lines, and as I will defend until the day I die, Phantom could have a ‘spotter’ like ability, where he can ‘mark’ enemies during cloak, and they show up through walls for a duation of time. Much like in Payday 2 with the big guys, but on this, with enemy players.

But, to do that, his cloak would indeed need to be reverted, and with the nerf to the shield, so he doesn’t constantly have this overwhelming ‘wall absorber’ that he had before, make the cooldown 6 seconds again. But, I’d even agree with 8 seconds. Puts it at a very comfortable medium. Not to mention killing someone with the katana is very satisfying, or using my kek10 and listen to the sweet sounds of headshots. But, I have to agree. His cloak should absorb enough damage so he can get back out, which ties in with the cooldown. He was able to get in, get a couple kills and get out.

But, I digress. I liked old Phantom, I didn’t like that people refused to learn to play around him, and went straight to complaining. But, seems like a lot of those people got what they wanted, nerfing what they thought made Phantom OP, but, before the nerf, there were two types of Phantom players.

Ones who wrecked face, and ones who sucked arse. Which, is quite relevant in the games I’d play with a level 13 player, against I, who was level 5 pre-nerf Phantom. I went 21/5, and the other went 5/18. Which shows that even experienced players had to learn something about the merc to play him properly.

I’d have liked to have seen Red Eye released, gather data, and then tweak Phantom accordingly.

TL;DR- Revert visibility and put cooldown at 6-8 seconds. Maybe health. Add spotter ability.

(sizzlingTulip) #25

they just added red eye, and he is a solid counter to phantom his IR goggles will show phantom to everyone so it makes sense that his cloak should be buffed so he can beat red eye when his IR goggles are not being used and beat other classes that do not have ability counters to phantom

(Killerbee) #26

Yep its kinda baffling how they did not give him buffs in the redeye patch.

(Lastprophet_cz) #27

He was still good after nerf, but with redeye he is useless. They should make him at least more invisible.

(VIXIVIXIV) #28

@Lastprophet_cz Looking at the dates, this is appears to be a dead thread that was (improperly) resurrected after more than a few weeks.

@Amerika @Faraleth @Ardez