Phantom thread to help him out, please read.

[sgtCrookyGrin]

Phantom’s cloak has never been defined with all of its lackluster abilities, people say borrow Spy’s watch, make his cloak a cloak, make it soundless, change it to something better SD!, etc. But what about something different and slightly unique (at least from what I can’t find on the forums). Here’s how Phantom can become something better than what we have right now.

General changes to cloak

• Cloak keeps him 100% invisible through movement and stillness

• No EMP field when cloaked

• No cloak buzzing sound effect

• Turning on cloak increases his foot step sounds, 20% if walking and 50% if running (isn’t nullified with silent footsteps or stacked with big ears)

• Allow it to turn on and off like Redeye’s IR Goggles, a toggleable ability (If you’ve never tried Redeye then maybe something like D.vA’s defense matrix is a better description?)

• Turn off/on animations extended 1.8 second turn on/1.6 second turn off (don’t know what times specifically to balance this, imagine him pressing a few buttons like on the C4 but it’s his pad on the left wrist)

  • .5 seconds till fully cloaked and .385 seconds till fully uncloaked (allows sprinting while doing animations, note speed boost only applies right after full cloak has fully applied)

• Can’t attack out of cloak anymore must turn cloak on/off manually

• Cloak drains at a steady rate no matter your movement

• Remove the automatic 7 second cool down on activation, it starts at 2 seconds and gradually increase depending on cloak use 2 second activation cost and 1 second build up (subject to change)

• If he turns on cloak while its cooldown is draining it will add on 3.5 seconds upon activation 3.5 second activation cost and 1 second build up (cool downs are subject to change)

• Cloak increases his speed to 425 (slightly slower than Phoenix)

• Cloak has no armor capabilities if you get shot you take damage (what do you think if he takes more damage from bullets and/or explosives while cloaked?)

• If damage is dealt to you while cloaked shimmer for a set amount of time .3 secs (subject to change)

  • You can be targeted by a Bushwacker turret while shimmering but instead of shooting at you it spots you in its LOS and you stay shimmering untill you get out of its LOS
  • Spot devices like Aimee’s SNITCH, Redeye’s IR goggles, and Vassili’s sensor will spot you through cloak and cause you to shimmer

• when cloak is turned on you have enigma, you will still be spotted but for a shorter duration Enigma effect essentially

• When cloak is turned on a loud sound effect is played (uncertain of what it should be, maybe a high pitched ring? As long as you can hear it under “heavy” gunfire but almost audible if you listen for it during a Skyhammer strike.)

• 10 seconds total of cloak (subject to change)

• 18 second total cool down (subject to change)

Important cloak changes

• When you turn cloak off it produces a single 15/7.5 meter scan that spots enemies through walls and debilitates them 2 second snitch debuff 1.5 second detected (scan size is subject to change and the 50% reduction only affects the meter size)

• When you turn cloak off it produces a single EMP 15/7.5 meter wave that disables deployables 6.5 seconds disable time (Same as above)

   - EMP effect also causes a deployable debuff that makes them take more damage in this state *50%* (percentage is subject to change)
  
   - Explosive deployables shot like Proxy mines and Fletcher stickies are destroyed without exploding (only the EMP debuff allows this)
  
   - If damage is dealt to cloak then the effect of turning off is reduced drastically and there's no EMP debuff *50%* 
  

Phantom himself

• balance his health to 120 and give him 400 speed skyhammer essentially

The concept is that it allows him to assist in team play if used wisely but also gives him free access of flanks against enemy players much better than he can right now, also it discourages katana only with 400 speed and gives Phantom some much needed understanding from us to SD that we don’t want him to katana only.

Counter play against him is quite simple and I would like to hear some more recommendations from you guys for ways to fight against him if this was implemented!

• His cloak makes a loud audible sound when turned on so you can be wary of listening for loud footsteps

• His footsteps are very audible and you can figure out his position easily

• Uncloaking can give his position away since it causes a 2 second debilitate debuff on everyone 15m in and EMPs deployables

• Deployables can be picked up and put back down since it’s only one single wave of an EMP thus the common Aura can easily counter it if they pay attention

• Shooting him while he’s cloaked makes his team effectiveness much worse if he lets himself take that damage

• Proxy mines still sense his movement even when cloaked, only until he turns his cloak off will the mine be EMPd (same for Fletcher’s stickies ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°))

• Other recons that spot him are a good way to figure out where he is coming from

• Bush’s turret can spot him if he shimmers and if that happens it spots him indefinitely in its LOS while shimmering his cloak until he escapes LOS only then would the effect stop

What do all of you think? Is it good or bad? Leave some criticism to make it better.

[Nesodos]

op af like that

a good phantom can already use the “cloak”, how its original name implies, as a refractive armor, effectively giving him a huge survivability boost while being able to take out deployable camps for some seconds

he already got good weapon choices and a further buff of this dimension would place him in the spot he was when first introduced (incredibly gamebraking)

the 15 meter spot is interesting but the debilitate would make him a better aimee and impossible to fight when alone (or no aura in sight)

[sgtCrookyGrin]

Survivability boost? Cloak? Last I checked no one agrees that you can use it now as extra health in fact that’s exactly what they nerfed him for. And yes you can stay marginally invisible while crouched and immobile albeit it’s bad for a fast paced game like this that requires teamplay.

His weapon that everyone got pissed at was his katana because it wasn’t fun to play against. What was considered game breaking was his ability to charge at you with rhino health and kill you with 2 hits easily sometimes one and escape. How is this bringing that back?

It’s more like a sidegrade being a single 15M wave (that’s subject to change), with less range than the snitch, has more clumsy use times, and is much shorter like 2 seconds short, it’s more of a disruption to health regen than a damage dealer.

[Reddeadcap]

[quote=“Nero;203121”]op af like that

a good phantom can already use the “cloak”, how its original name implies, as a refractive armor, effectively giving him a huge survivability boost while being able to take out deployable camps for some seconds
[/quote]
He’s wearing armor… the armor refracts, as in it bends light around him to turn him invisible, hence the name. That has nothing to do with it offering survivability.

With other characters body armor translating to health and movement speed, I’ve brought up the idea of just making him fast for a high health character as an equally equipped character has more usability and versatility.

My only thoughts on Phantom’s Refractive Armor is that he should be able to stay cloaked so long as he’s not moving, regaining it’s charge and to be forced to turn it off to attack, instead of being able to fire while hidden at some unsuspecting enemy but unable to turn it on while being detected and emitting a loud noise when it’s turned off or on.

[sgtCrookyGrin]

[quote=“Redcap;203123”]
emitting a loud noise when it’s turned off or on.[/quote]

@Redcap
I was wondering about the sound effect idea of the turn off/on cloak, if anything maybe turn on because turn off exposes Phantom’s pseudo position since with good sense you know that a deployable being EMPd means Phantom is near or a snitch that lasts two seconds is a Phantom.

[incisiveDetour]

I think the cloaking should be without noise when he is not moving and that the effect radius should be a spotting effect (including the enemy knowing that they are spotted). In addition, the cloak would be wearing off way slower if not moving.

The idea here is to have a Phantom that can either move around with the cloak to sneak and stab on flank tactics, but his cloak humms, OR a phantom that can decide to work at chokepoints and sneak behind the enemy line and stay hidden a while to detect the enemies and help the team.
The enemies could know they are spotted, but if it is at the chokepoint fighting, they could think that a redeye spotted them, or a snitch is around… and finally they could start shooting in the room’s corners or so.
This way you keep the lonewolf (but risky because not fully silent cloak) flanking possibility, or a more direct team-helping approach with an immobile and silent cloaking that can help detect enemies for all the friends.

The current EMP effect is I think nota good solution, and also I’d prefer that this feature stays with Thunder’s conc’ to make him more useful on that EMP aspect. Phantom should be a close range recon, as opposed to the other far/mid range recons (vas, aimee, although redeye is supposedly a bit more versatile)…

[sgtCrookyGrin]

[quote=“incisiveDetour;203167”]I think the cloaking should be without noise when he is not moving and that the effect radius should be a spotting effect (including the enemy knowing that they are spotted). In addition, the cloak would be wearing off way slower if not moving.

The idea here is to have a Phantom that can either move around with the cloak to sneak and stab on flank tactics, but his cloak humms, OR a phantom that can decide to work at chokepoints and sneak behind the enemy line and stay hidden a while to detect the enemies and help the team.
The enemies could know they are spotted, but if it is at the chokepoint fighting, they could think that a redeye spotted them, or a snitch is around… and finally they could start shooting in the room’s corners or so.
This way you keep the lonewolf (but risky because not fully silent cloak) flanking possibility, or a more direct team-helping approach with an immobile and silent cloaking that can help detect enemies for all the friends.

The current EMP effect is I think nota good solution, and also I’d prefer that this feature stays with Thunder’s conc’ to make him more useful on that EMP aspect. Phantom should be a close range recon, as opposed to the other far/mid range recons (vas, aimee, although redeye is supposedly a bit more versatile)… [/quote]

Did you read my post and understand how he will be played if this was implemented in the game? Did you even once look at this post and think about typing something out that wasn’t basically stated? k…

[Nesodos]

[quote=“sgtCrookyGrin;203122”]Survivability boost? Cloak? Last I checked no one agrees that you can use it now as extra health in fact that’s exactly what they nerfed him for. And yes you can stay marginally invisible while crouched and immobile albeit it’s bad for a fast paced game like this that requires teamplay.

His weapon that everyone got pissed at was his katana because it wasn’t fun to play against. What was considered game breaking was his ability to charge at you with rhino health and kill you with 2 hits easily sometimes one and escape. How is this bringing that back?

It’s more like a sidegrade being a single 15M wave (that’s subject to change), with less range than the snitch, has more clumsy use times, and is much shorter like 2 seconds short, it’s more of a disruption to health regen than a damage dealer.[/quote]

the shield can still be used to suck up a good portion of damage if used right, you just have to time it right

im not saying it brings it back, im saying all this buffs will make him broken again(and the 2 katana swipes are still deadly when flanking enemies)

in your first post you said it spots them like snitch, but not how long it does
anything longer than the 2 seconds would be op (and even those 2 secs are enough for most guns)
the emp would also be unfair against any merc that often relies on deployables (a bush/proxy would be useless while a fragger wouldnt even care)

[quote=“Redcap;203123”]
He’s wearing armor… the armor refracts, as in it bends light around him to turn him invisible, hence the name. That has nothing to do with it offering survivability.[/quote]

a “real” refractive armour would make him a big prism, not invisible
refraction does not mean “bending light around smth”, it means you split up light into its individual colors (a big shiny rainbow) [or, when able to produce absolute reflection, you can actually bend light around him, he would “just” not be able to see anything cuz there is no light reaching him]

it would also not be able to shield him from any incoming damage (bullets would leave permanent holes, lasers are ok)

[sgtCrookyGrin]

[quote=“Nero;203318”]
the shield can still be used to suck up a good portion of damage if used right, you just have to time it right

im not saying it brings it back, im saying all this buffs will make him broken again(and the 2 katana swipes are still deadly when flanking enemies)

in your first post you said it spots them like snitch, but not how long it does
anything longer than the 2 seconds would be op (and even those 2 secs are enough for most guns)
the emp would also be unfair against any merc that often relies on deployables (a bush/proxy would be useless while a fragger wouldnt even care)[/quote]

2 bullets is not exactly a lot of damage, I’ve used him plenty and it’s not possible to use it right now as any form of a survival ability. SD has said that this wasn’t their intended idea on Phantom and heavily nerfed him due to community feedback. Even then if it was still here that’s incredibly selfish of an ability that still wont perform any team play aspects excluding an EMP field which is lackluster, hence why it needs some form of teamplay.

Please list how he would be broken because the only legitimate reason you’ve stated so far is his good weapon selection. And say no to melee Phantom, it’s a bad playstyle that only encourages new players to quit the game from rage (the ones playing Phantom not the victims of katana Phantom). Yes it’s fun but it’s unethical in this game and should only be considered as a novelty at best.

Yes it’s a single detection ring (that becomes weak if you are damaged in any way be it fall damage or a stray bullet and is subject to changes) that debilitates for 2 seconds and is still stoppable by heals, it can’t be spammed because of it’s penalizing activation costs while on cooldown, every time you turn it on a loud sound effect is played that “is” heard over gun fire and audible during a Skyhammer strike, it takes some time for the turn on/off to happen forcing you to position your self instead of surprise shooting from cloak, any movement he makes while cloaked is heard easily due to increased footstep sounds, and any deployable under the EMP debuff (when you’re not damaged while cloaked) is still able to be picked up and placed down at no cost except for cooldown. BTW proxy mines still sense his movement and I’ve even considered Bush’s turret can still target him while cloaked but instead of shooting it marks him as “spotted” for the team to see him. This is not a better Aimee should you read the post a few more times you’ll see what each tweak means and why it makes Phantom better and fun to fight against.

I also want to know why you clearly don’t like this because so far all I can figure out is that you don’t want to be singled out by him when he uncloaks and you 1v1 him, you think he’s supposed to be a survival merc with his armor being more like protection, and that this post is overbuffing him. I’m not buffing him I’m changing him so that he isn’t almost completely worthless to use and this seems to be a great foundation for creating the Phantom that should’ve been on release day. I want to see how we can fix Phantom if this was the idea, so far no one wants to read it except for you and I think this is a great start to see your opinions on it. Criticize on what could be improved, this forum is about discussion to make the game better is it not?

[Herr_Hanz]

Correction:

it takes more than 2 bullets to decloak a phantom, unless the armor is low, a phantom can sustain 150 damage from a sniper headshot

[Nesodos]

first.) 2 bullets? where did you get that from?

i always said he needs a good spotting ability, but not one thing that does everything at once

he would be broken because this would effectively combine 2 already good abilities (damage boost and emp) and give him 2 extra boosts (making explosive deployables useless and damage boost against other, already emp’d deployables)

and no, picking up emp’d stuff and dropping them back is no easy counter because it takes valuable time to activate them again (like arming mines, time before auras heal,…)
while you dropped it you could already be dead (did you know that a blish got an effective dps of 300 against debilitated targets [=headshot only dps])

it would also be unfair because fragger, stoker and fire supps could still use their abilities unlike the already underpowered proxy (in comparison to other eplosive abilities) and the forgotten bushwhacker

also, if new players get frustrated because they are bad at playing melee phantie then its their own fault, phantom is no beginner merc
you say they leave out of rage but how many bad vasillis would have to leave because they cant hit the broad side of a wall?

and its not easy to immediately heal some debilitated people when the aura station is emp’d
otherwise it would be a waste of healing abilities and no medic would do it
oh, and increased footstep sound would kill the cloak even more than it is already(every player with a brain knows there is an enemy when they can hear their footstomps)

i’d say this all is way to complicated and does not fit the theme of a “refractive” armor (it isnt one btw but names dont mean anything in games)

give him a better cloak (~90-99% invisible while walking and low noise, less invisible while sprinting and more noise) but with the need to decloak before doing anything(but only his normal decloak sound)

and then give him a separate spotting ability (maybe a 20 to 10 meter radius that gets smaller the more his suit decharges, its also draining more power than just cloaking), this way he can help his team but does not have to tell the enemy hes nearby

[ZenVirZan]

[quote=“Herr_Hanz;203423”]Correction:

it takes more than 2 bullets to decloak a phantom, unless the armor is low, a phantom can sustain 150 damage from a sniper headshot[/quote] It’s 50 damage at full, but obviously in practice much less, so yes it would be two bullets or so (crotz/smg9/kek10 deal above 40 damage in two body shots)

tldr; too many intriquite changes, you’ve made it far too complex.

How to fix Phantom:

• Remove cloak activation base cooldown
• Probably nerf EMP as well to compensate for the more strategic use of stealth.

That’s all that needs to be done.
To make him more comfortable to play, making his stealth animation occur a bit faster would be much appreciated, but isn’t required by any means.

Anyone complaining that he’s too loud or needs to be more invisible needs to learn how to play Phantom.

[JJMAJR]

Here’s what I think:

[spoiler]Yes:

[quote=“sgtCrookyGrin;32219”]

• No EMP field when cloaked

• No cloak buzzing sound effect

• Turning on cloak increases his foot step sounds, 20% if walking and 50% if running (isn’t nullified with silent footsteps or stacked with big ears)

• Allow it to turn on and off like Redeye’s IR Goggles, a toggleable ability (If you’ve never tried Redeye then maybe something like D.vA’s defense matrix is a better description?)

• Turn off/on animations extended 1.8 second turn on/1.6 second turn off (don’t know what times specifically to balance this, imagine him pressing a few buttons like on the C4 but it’s his pad on the left wrist)

• .5 seconds till fully cloaked and .385 seconds till fully uncloaked (allows sprinting while doing animations, note speed boost only applies right after full cloak has fully applied)

• Remove the automatic 7 second cool down on activation, it starts at 2 seconds and gradually increase depending on cloak use 2 second activation cost and 1 second/second build up (subject to change, see below.)

• If he turns on cloak while its cooldown is draining it will add on 3.5 seconds upon activation 3.5 second activation cost and 1 second build up (cool downs are subject to change, as in this really should change a bit.)

• Cloak has no armor capabilities if you get shot you take damage (what do you think if he takes more damage from bullets and/or explosives while cloaked?)

• If damage is dealt to you while cloaked shimmer for a set amount of time .3 secs (subject to change)

• 10 seconds total of cloak (subject to change)

• 18 second total cool down (subject to change)

Phantom himself

• balance his health to 120 and give him 400 420 speed skyhammer Nader essentially[/quote][/spoiler]

[spoiler]NO:

[quote=“sgtCrookyGrin;32219”]
General changes to cloak

• Cloak keeps him 100% invisible through movement and stillness

• Can’t attack out of cloak anymore must turn cloak on/off manually

• Cloak drains at a steady rate no matter your movement

• If damage is dealt to you while cloaked shimmer for a set amount of time .3 secs (subject to change)

  • You can be targeted by a Bushwacker turret while shimmering but instead of shooting at you it spots you in its LOS and you stay shimmering untill you get out of its LOS
  • Spot devices like Aimee’s SNITCH, Redeye’s IR goggles, and Vassili’s sensor will spot you through cloak and cause you to shimmer

• when cloak is turned on you have enigma, you will still be spotted but for a shorter duration Enigma effect essentially

• When cloak is turned on a loud sound effect is played (uncertain of what it should be, maybe a high pitched ring? As long as you can hear it under “heavy” gunfire but almost audible if you listen for it during a Skyhammer strike.)

• 10 seconds total of cloak (subject to change)

• 18 second total cool down (subject to change)

Important cloak changes

• When you turn cloak off it produces a single 15/7.5 meter scan that spots enemies through walls and debilitates them 2 second snitch debuff 1.5 second detected (scan size is subject to change and the 50% reduction only affects the meter size)

• When you turn cloak off it produces a single EMP 15/7.5 meter wave that disables deployables 6.5 seconds disable time (Same as above)

   - EMP effect also causes a deployable debuff that makes them take more damage in this state *50%* (percentage is subject to change)
  
   - Explosive deployables shot like Proxy mines and Fletcher stickies are destroyed without exploding (only the EMP debuff allows this)
  
   - If damage is dealt to cloak then the effect of turning off is reduced drastically and there's no EMP debuff *50%*[/quote][/spoiler]
  

I think that Phantom should have a spotting ability, but your suggestions (as in post-cloaking abilities) are extremely overpowered, not to mention the fact that you tacked on 100% invisibility whether moving or standing still.

I think that Phantom should be encouraged to play intelligently, not have a set of skills built to be a crutch.

[sgtCrookyGrin]

@JJMAJR at this point I think he simply needs that and only that. I can’t figure out a teamplay aspect that makes him remotely even applicable when he has invisibility, he’s essentially a very very fancy assault.

How they balance team aspects at this point seems beyond our concept…