Phantom rework thread V2.0 by Eox : a better Phantom for the sake of everyone !

(Monty) #41

Fact: After the update it has become very easy to deal with phantoms. You know, I no longer have to run as the suicide Nader to clear out the first stalking Phantom. (I kept smashing the ‘F’ key so that when I went down, the granade fell down as well. Thus even if the phantom managed to survive, he was on low HP for the next encounter.)

But anyhow, the idea of letting the phantom do something while invisible does sound like fun. You know, helping a teammate up, sneakingly planting the dynamite before the enemy’s eyes, and actually being an alternative for the usual springy proxy rush. You know this way phantom would have some objective based tangent beyond just the kill/death ratio.
After all; Fragger can disable the EV and Vasilli helps you to spot enemy team members through walls.

And I do feel that his cloak visibility should be brought back to what it was before. And I am not against rolling back the melee nerfs. (Well, the movement speed reduction on bigger melee weapons could be kept.)

Anyhow… just my two cents.

And on fun note… I love playing against a team of phantoms on the Bridge map, presuming that the objectives are guarded by at least two Auras and one Skyhammer: healing and ammo made killing invading phantoms almost effortless task before the patch.

(Azure) #42

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;53581”][quote=“Azure;53555”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;53168”]I think I figured out the EMP

  • Just imagine the Motion Sensor from Vasilli ok?
  • Now, instead of what that does, it just disables all deployables in range, meaning that they are useless while that thing is acitve.
  • It can be destroyed, but has a bit more health to it, takes more shots to destroy than a motion sensor or a sticky, but not nearly as much as the health or ammo stations.

The idea is to create a clutch scenario, he throws the EMP, the enemy doesn’t receive any notification that their stuff is disabled. He can safely go in and kill say…an Aura or Rhino sitting on the healing station. Plant a bomb near the conosle or in the train car on Trainyard when it has mines and stickies everywhere. He could even disable a turret for his team safely without having to expose himself or his team to it.

And keep in mind, it doesn’t destroy any of the stuff, just stops it from working temporarily. It can be destroyed and once it is everything is back to normal.

This turns him into a pure sabotage class, killing important key players with the best flanking tool available, and disabling deployables that would cause major problems for his team or himself.

How’s that for a Recon class?[/quote]

How cool would it be if the EMP would disable literally anything electronic.

So when you’re in its range.

-Map is disabled
-All communication is disabled
-HuD is disabled
-Disables the EV (Not destroy)
-Disables C4

Its something destructive against Teamplay

But it is a double-edged sword so it would effect your team as well. (But both sides can destroy it and your team will have a clear indicator to where it is when deployed to prevent trolling)

So throwing it down on a key point to slow down a C4 timer or Black out a corridor have a stealthy ambush point.
[/quote]

Disable the EV and C4 no, cause that can be spammed pretty hard on pubs, leave that to Support like Skyhammer and Kira.

And the other three concussion grenades will do that.

So I have to say no to those personally

[/quote]

So Airstrikes are breaking the game because they can be spammed too…
With an EMP the EV would not be destroyed so it would resume immediately after the EMP is dispatched.
And it would only stop the Timer for the C4 not get rid of it. It adds a new dynamic for attacking and defending.

(humaneCushion) #43

An EMP device should be a character of it’s own, not a tack on to make phantom more “team oriented”.

Phantom is an assault character, he is equipped for front-line combat, not reconnaissance, and that’s fine.
120 HP is a good number for his HP, and while katana loadouts could stand to lose the best heavy handgun in the game(S&W), his loadouts don’t really need much tweaking either(I do like the idea of giving him Mechanic).

The problem was always the fact that his cloak is not about stealth, but about terror.
His cloak simply has to lose the shield, and should almost certainly return to the old visibility values.
The fact that he now cannot use it quite as often is fine.

Any major changes in excess of eliminating the shield from the cloak should probably wait till that much is done.

Food for thought though, instead of tacking on a sensor or an EMP device that’d make more sense on a separate character, try this:

HP down to 100
Cloak loses shielding while active.
Cloak has ## “energy”.
While the cloak is disabled, ##% of damage taken is drained from the cloak energy instead of HP.

Effective HP with cloak off is based on how liberally the cloak was used.
Getting shot drains cloak when it’s inactive, preventing using it for cheap escapes.
Regenerating cloak acts as a layer of rapidly regenerating health when out of combat.

^
Perfect setup for a proper stealthy assault.

(cherryBill) #44

Phantom should be buffed again.

(cherryBill) #45

The new change for phantom has made him useless and no help for his team. His katana is basically useless because of how the new melee thingy work (in fact I feel like the Stilnotto Stiletto works better in most situations). Phantom could at least kill people before the tweaks, but now he does nothing but dying over and over again. Phantom should not be removed from the game either; a melee based assassin would be amazing for a fast past shooter.

Phantom’s primary should be removed completely. The 3 SMGs are way too powerful for a melee based character. Phantom should only carry heavy pistols to finish off fast mercs such as Aura or Spark. His cloak is way too easy to see, it lost the meaning of being stealthy, most players could see you the way they see anyone else holding a knife and charging at their face.

(triteCherry) #46

Honestly most of the Phantoms I see dying over and over again are the ones that run at you from a distance in a straight line or the ones that you see coming, go in a flanking route while turning invisible and somehow expect that you wouldn’t think to intercept them.

It’s really hard to accurately judge how it is being against a Phantom after the patch when a large portion that play them go well past pants on head into full on potato.

(Azure) #47

Honestly most of the Phantoms I see dying over and over again are the ones that run at you from a distance in a straight line or the ones that you see coming, go in a flanking route while turning invisible and somehow expect that you wouldn’t think to intercept them.

It’s really hard to accurately judge how it is being against a Phantom after the patch when a large portion that play them go well past pants on head into full on potato.

[/quote]

In the game i see phantoms they flank you really well but with the reduced hit box timer on the katana it is ridiculously hard to estimate whether or not you’ll reach a moving target from behind. Resulting in a oh there is a sword stabbing to the left/right of me better turn and hop backwards and shoot him in the face. With the movement nerf you are literally better with going Proxy for melee kills from behind you’re insanely fast and at most will take 2-3 quick attacks to kill most players.

If phantom is not allowed to melee kill you then he MUST get something that can help the team or objectives.

(Snark) #48

[quote=“cherryBill;54078”]Phantom could at least kill people before the tweaks, but now he does nothing but dying over and over again.

[…]

Phantom’s primary should be removed completely. The 3 SMGs are way too powerful for a melee based character. [/quote]

You say he’s useless and then want to remove his “too powerful” primary weapon, the kek/crotzni. For people who bother to flank choke points and hit them, particularly when opponents are engaged, phantom is quite powerful.

Unless you’ve got great reaction and aim, a Vasilli generally isn’t great when you play him as a fragger and try to push forward the front lines. If the map geometry or opposing team doesn’t allow you snipe effectively, switch mercs. To a lesser extent, the same is true for phantom with flanking as he is decently powerful on the front line but far less so than a fragger.

If you aren’t able to adapt your playstyle to the merc you are using, you might consider using another merc.

(Eox) #49

Not sure if removing his SMGs is a good idea. It depends of the efficiency of his abilities I’d say. With the EMP nade and the invisibility skill suggested by @Watsyurdeal I’d say that Phantom can keep his SMGs.

He’s not supposed to be a melee merc. He’s supposed to be a stealth merc. Actually, I am pretty sure that no merc is supposed to be played melee only. At least I think they tried it for Phantom once, and it didn’t worked.

(watsyurdeal) #50

Agreed, Phantom is more like a James Bond meets Predator sort of guy. He needs the SMGs as a backup plan in case simply meleeing someone isn’t a smart option, which it usually isn’t.

The gun would allow him to get a key pick or two, then bail, turning an even fight to stacked in his team’s favor on a push or hold. It’s really up to the player.

(VincentRJaeger) #51

I’m a bit of a bandwagon jumper here when I agree that the EMP ability would be an effective tool for Phantom, but it’s just that it’s more or less one of the best ways to make Phantom more teamplay-oriented and define his recon role. Though it might need a somewhat fair amount of cooldown (bit longer than Vas’s sensor) because I feel it might easily become too annoying/strong if it’s got a short cooldown.

For the invisibility aspect, I’d want to have the a bit of time when he decloaks to prevent attacks from an instant decloak, but with a small function that I believe would be good for Phantom; pressing M1 while cloaked decloaks you, giving him that surprise motherfucker-element to him without making it instant.

Otherwise, being a former TF2-player and a bandwagon jumper, I agree with most of the ideas here.

(ochrePretzel) #52

I would actually like to see an EMP with this guy. In fact, he goes 100% invisible when still, and about 40% visible when running. I like that… its not too much or too little.

My BIGGEST pet-peve is the SORRY excuse for a swing he does… he acts like he has a 50lb sledge hammer… swing literally slows turn so much that it is near useless against a fast opponent. The damage is fine, but that slow swing gets me killed… a LOT…

(Parmenion) #53

I just unlocked him, 1st of the both sides, i don’t know why you all whine. I used the melee for one kill btw.

(Ronan) #54

You didn’t play him pre-nerf. J/s.

(Ronan) #55

What I’d like to see changed to Phantom? Well.

Put the visibility back to where it was. He’s basically just wearing a sheet over his head at this point.

Make the cooldown 6 seconds again, as 10 seconds with it being his only ability that isn’t an explosive, etc, should’ve stayed there in the first place.

Melee is being fixed, no reason to comment on that.

I’ve said in posts before, allow Phantom to do what they can do in Payday 2. ‘Mark’ enemies, let it be on a charge-based system. A charge every 6 seconds, maxing at a total of 2-4. Meaning when he has one up, he can cloak, go and mark a Vasilli that’s on a roof that a Fragger might have not seen, letting them show up through walls, terrain, etc, for a limited amount of time. Giving Phantom the ability to not necessarily engage that target, per say, but give a ‘recon’ type-feel, like what he’s supposed to be.

The health where it stands with the current cloak is BS, partnered with the shield nerfs, you die stupid quick. Phantom is a medium-build merc, and Vasilli has 110 health too who is a good deal smaller than Phantom. Now, doesn’t mean they base health off of stature… but, look at Fragger, he’s wearing heavy kevlar and has 150, why should Phantom not have 120? J/s. Not to mention Phantom is wearing a kevlar-metal based ARMOR. It’s armor, people.

(Eox) #56

Vassili has 100 health, not 110.

(Garox_) #57

Pour moi Phantom devrait ravoir tous ce qu’il avait au début et lui enlevé le bouclier mettre ses point de vie à 110 comme sa y est maintenant remettre le katana comme avant et qu’il soit un peu plus visible quand il bouge. Sa serait “nerf-buff”

(Eox) #58

T’aurais pu au moins faire l’effort de causer en anglais.

[i]Translation for english users :

“In my opinion Phantom should have everything he had from the start, then remove his shield and set his HP at 110 like it is now, then give him the Katana like before and make him more visible when he moves. It would be a nerf-buff. Like this evreyone will be happy.”[/i]

(Stormrage) #59

From a competitive standpoint, a lot of veteran players have said that Phantom was not incredibly strong pre-nerf. The main issue (if any) was that Phantom could score cheesy kills because of his armor protecting him. With this armor gone, would he really be an issue if he had old visibility while cloaked/stealthed with 110HP as he does now?

It has also been said that Phantom was good at taking out people who weren’t situation-ally aware. Read: campers, or newbies. But that can also be said about any merc, really.

What we have is a problem that every nerf was applied at once instead of fine tuning him as he was. That’s actually a good thing, because tweaks here and there can bring him up to speed again.

What he needs:

-No armor on cloak, that’s dumb
-Less visibility while stealthed/cloaked- no point to even using it now.
-Melee speed back with Katana out; run and attack speed both

He’d be fine as an assassin, just make it to where you have to think before ambushing.

(Ronan) #60

Even if we were to go by those Standards, Skyhammer has 120. If we’re comparing model sizes and whatnot, I believe Phantom stands just as tall as Skyhammer does, maybe a tad bit skinnier. But, what most of my concern is, which as stated above, really doesn’t go into play, armor, and things of the sort. But, I mean. If you look at Aura, she wears no armor at all, at least, maybe some very thin based armor and only has 90 health.

I 'unno. Maybe I’m over thinking it.