Phantom rework thread V2.0 by Eox : a better Phantom for the sake of everyone !


(Eox) #1

Seeing the most recent changes to Phantom, I didn’t waited too long to come back in game and try the new changes. I’ll be blunt : they were not satisfying. Basically, the dev team nerfed Phantom without really taking into account the real issues that Phantom has ! The fixed the symptoms, not the disease ! And the worst of all, it even had collateral damage ! If you have tried to use melee since the most recent update you probably noticed that your character now gets a cerebral attack every time he tries to use melee that prevents him from using it effectively : that change was totally unneeded, probably as well as a lot of changes involving Phantom.

Phantom already proved in the past that he was a balance nightmare. Reworked two times since the closed beta, once strongly overpowered, once strongly underpowered, and once fun ruining merc for everyone in the enemy team that does not play him. That last status is what was though buy a very large majority of players, coming from every sides of the internet. Extremely annoying, fun ruining, downright overpowered… The complaints were numerous, with a lot of arguments (very oftenly understandable). And here are the main reasons :

  • The armor system, that does not fit a stealth based character, and encourages cheap plays like rushing down someone and spam melee.
  • Extreme lack of teamplay. Most of Phantom players didn’t cared about anything but their K/D ratio. Probably due to the lack of teamplay options that Phantom suggest. A new system was introduced that allow someone to grab support xp for being a human shield, supposed to work with the armor system. Yet, the armor system is not used to cover an ally anyway, because it’s much more useful to use it to rush at people than wasting it to cover an ally. It’s not used like that, and let’s face it : it never will.
  • Is extremely infuriating to fight against. Like a good Vassili, but mastering Vassili is far from being easy. It’s on the other hand very easy to play Phantom, and he feels extremely cheap.

Notice that I only took the three main issues into account.

So did the nerfs solved the issue ? Absolutely not. The main strategy and actually the only viable one is still rushing down people since you can’t count on your stealth as much anymore. Teamplay is still not encouraged… Okay, at least you’ll expect to die against him in the most cheapest ways much less than before, but it does not mean that it’s fine ! Phantom players need to have fun too, and those melee turn change has to go : they are terrible ! You are free to hate Phantom, but he deserves to be respected ! His current state is an insult to the character and every players who picked Phantom as their favourite character. Phantom deserves much more than that ! He deserves a rework !

The armor system is the cause of 80% of Phantom’s problem ! It’s simple, you can’t balance that ! I can’t think about something that makes the idea balanced ! Phantom need to be stealth based. If you are detected the enmy should punish you ! You shouldn’t have that “get out of jail free” card that is the armor ! This is an horrible design choice ! The other part of the issue is the lack of freedom the invisibility gives you. What can you do when you are invisible ? Move and… That’s all. You can’t play an objective while cloaked, you can’t help up a teammate while cloaked… That lack of versatility does not help at all. That’s another poor design choice ! If Phantom was able to make some contextual actions while invisible, he would have been a much better teamplayer.

I guess the post is long enough. I won’t waste your time anymore. Here’s just what I suggest and highly recommand as a rework for Phantom. Of course, get rid of EVERY SINGLE changes done in this update before. We’ll take the Phantom before the nerf as a base.

- Remove the Armor system !

  • Decreased hp to 110 is fine, let’s keep it.
  • Increaseed CD to 10 for six seconds of invisibility is fine, lets keep it too.
  • Allow Phantom to perform any actions while invisible (helping up, playing an objective, etc…) ! This includes shooting and meleeing ! If Phantom attacks however, he’ll become much more visible as long as he keeps attacking. This should make the invisibility much more versatile.
  • Damaging Phantom will no longer drain his invisibility, but he’ll breifly blink if damaged or if he bumps against an enemy. So if you damage him, it allows you to try to keep track.
  • If needed, tune up or down the invisibility. This will depend of the feedback. IMO the invisibility level could be reverted back at it’s previous state.
  • You may also want to extend the cooldown duration further, but also expand the invisibility duration. This is actually a buff : if you use six seconds of your invisibility you’ll stay at 10 seconds CD. Buf if you wish to use more, the CD will extend further of course. Tell me if you don’t understand.

Finally, remove every other Phantom nerfs besides the weapon specific ones. About melee weapons, I think the lasting hitbox nerf of the Katana is also fine, but remove the turning speed nerf ! It just makes melee worthless. It was not needed as a Phantom nerf too. Also, bring back Chopper to +20% melee damage : +15% changes nothing on the Katana’s efficiency : +15% or +20%, you’ll still be able to one shot Vassili with a lunge. That perk was okay before, but now it’s ruined.

@Watsyurdeal also suggested some very nice augments that could fit Phantom a lot. I’ll let him add his augments ideas by himself.

Feel free to discuss about it.


(watsyurdeal) #2

Random thought Eox…emp nade, or pulse

This ability would basically disable or disarm mines, stickies, and turrets, or in some hinder them or affect them so his team mates can push in.

And it fits with his role well, Recon should be giving intel or doing some sort of spotting, he could just simply spot these mines and turrets for his team, so they do walk into a trap so easily.

As much as I hate it the reality is that he’s going to need a second ability, since true invisibility in favor of getting rid of that freaking armor isn’t going to happen.


(Eox) #3

Not sure if he needs a second ability if I check my changes. This is still something to study though.


(Ronan) #4

If people would stop complaining about Phantom, and if the people here decided to release Red Eye, put him on a Free Rotation along with Phantom when he was released, the nerfs to Phantom wouldn’t have even been needed.

They listened to the cries of the Reddit babies, proving that if people bitch enough, they can get whatever they want.

Red Eye is a direct counter to Phantom; so they could’ve just left him as he was, added Red Eye, and THEN tweaked him accordingly.

In Phantom’s trailer, he had no primary. He had a semi-automatic pistol and a katana. That should be his loadout, maybe give him a different handgun each time, but, make the katana a default. I have 3 damn Colbalt Phantom’s, each with the stiletto knife. The way they displayed him upon release, it seemed like in each thing he was going to receive the katana; it was a specialized weapon for him. He was good at getting in, and killing people. That was his job to the team. The nerfs to the cloak time were too much; if they were going to lower the damage it could absorb, fine, but don’t take his key mechanic and let him not use it for nearly half the game or during chokepoints since he’s basically, no… actually is squishy now. I cloaked in the middle of a dark area, 5 different times on a map, and 3 out in the open. As soon as I completely cloaked, guess what? Died. 10 seconds is ridiculous. If they were going to base it on anything, the Cloak could regen whilst he’s standing completely still, not to rip on TF2, but, it’s a good mechanic.

All Phantom is now, to describe him. You take the health of a squishy like Aura, add the stupid slow speed of Rhino, and throw a sheet over his head, and give him a stick that weighs 50lbs.

He is a squishy, slow merc with a sheet over his head thinking he’s stealthy, when in reality, ANYONE can see him now; AKA useless.

They decided to nerf melee in general instead of taking the time to look at Phantom’s katana. It was a half-assed way to do things.

He needed some nerfs, yes, but not these.

Take away the armor, call it a cloak instead of such, put his health back to 120, cloak duration and timer back, and put the speed back on him at least, make the lunge range for the right-click less if need be.

-Sincerely,

A closed-beta player who spent $9.99 on this guy and then bought a bronze loadout card for him since I wasted all my golds in an attempt to get a cobalt katana, kek10 loadout.

I’d like my money back if he’s not fixed.


(Eox) #5

Yeah, because insulting Reddit will make the things change. Let’s not have an insightful and well argumented conversation ! Let’s just find a scrapegoat and thrashtalk it. It’ll for sure make things better.

The funny thing is that even on those forums the number of people that though Phantom was overpowered (even a little) was an extremely large majority. Only 9% of users though Phantom was balanced. Phantom was not nerfed due to Reddit, he was nerfed because the whole DB community complained against him.


(watsyurdeal) #6

Well I was planning to write a whole essay on this thing but I’ll try to bullet point my thoughts on him.

  • It’s pretty clear they intended him to be some sort of slayer like Fragger and Vasilli. He’s a close range merc, plain and simple, and cloak is supposed to help him get within that range to be effective.
  • The armor serves as a protection, in case he is spotted before he gets within range…well…why is he getting spotted in the first place? If he flanked the enemy wouldn’t see him at all, it’s when he’s coming at them from the front or for a position where the are concentrated at. Why is armor helping him in this scenario? When full cloak and not armor at all would have been a much better solution, WITHOUT frustrating players on both ends?
  • Why would you give him an ability like this, then nerf it rather than rework it? It already didn’t work well enough in a higher level of play, it only worked on unprepared or unorganized teams. In which case, a good player would dominate with ANY merc.
  • So here is the issue…he brings nothing worth using, other mercs have his SMGs, and other mercs will soon have his Katana. So unless the cloak is reworked from scratch as an infiltration tool and NOT a tanking tool, Phantom will be a tier LOWER than Arty as far as I am concerned. Because a merc without useful abilities that support his tool set, is a waste of a team mate.

What he needs

  • Real cloak, not this tanky stuff, REAL INVISIBILITY, look up the Infiltrator from Tribes, he had full invisibility until he went past a certain speed or took damage. Apply the same principles, when Phantom Sprints and when takes a hit, he’s visible, otherwise you can’t see him, even if he’s walking normally.
  • Augments for the Katana less loadouts that give him more utility, like Mechanic for example, a perfect clutch loadout to use to go in and get a sneaky plant.
  • Another ability, preferably a spotting ability that displays the location of deployables to his allies. “Enemy deployable here guys”, “mines here” “turret here”

(Sinsanatis) #7

The things I really hate about the nerf were the cloaking an the melee turning. All the needs to be said about the melee turning is that it HAS TO GO.
The cloaking however, should be changed to a classic cloaking style. They should make it to how visible he is depends on how fast hes moving. So for example, sprinting= the current moving visibility but a little less, running=the moving visibility before the nerf, moving while crouched= slightly visible, and completely still= gone.

Like seriously, his “refracting” armor is now doing just that, but now its distorting everything around it. His cloak is now like looking through cracked glass with some parts of it being a mirror. I think the whole concept of a “refractive armor” should be removed and be replaced as just a cloak. So instead of the shining pixels, have it be purely clear and be seen as a red(for the enemy to see) outline that becomes visible according to his movement speed.


(triteCherry) #8

I wouldn’t give him 100% invisibility. If you don’t have Vaseline’s wallhax ball what possible counter to that is there besides shooting wildly in the direction of the electric humming sound?

I think he should go back to the old visibility but with a natural passive ability that allows Phantom to avoid Mines, Turrets, Motion Sensors completely while cloaked and do 1.5-2 times more damage to Ammo and Health Stations (cloaked or uncloaked). Maybe even allow Katana kills unrevivable.

When he was first mentioned I was expecting him to be a priority target killer for the hard to reach mercs that sit behind a wall of moving firearms. I like that you are no longer “safe”, if your a medic or a sniper you should be worried about your backside too as most other mercs are.


(Eox) #9

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;52321”]Well I was planning to write a whole essay on this thing but I’ll try to bullet point my thoughts on him.

  • It’s pretty clear they intended him to be some sort of slayer like Fragger and Vasilli. He’s a close range merc, plain and simple, and cloak is supposed to help him get within that range to be effective.
  • The armor serves as a protection, in case he is spotted before he gets within range…well…why is he getting spotted in the first place? If he flanked the enemy wouldn’t see him at all, it’s when he’s coming at them from the front or for a position where the are concentrated at. Why is armor helping him in this scenario? When full cloak and not armor at all would have been a much better solution, WITHOUT frustrating players on both ends?
  • Why would you give him an ability like this, then nerf it rather than rework it? It already didn’t work well enough in a higher level of play, it only worked on unprepared or unorganized teams. In which case, a good player would dominate with ANY merc.
  • So here is the issue…he brings nothing worth using, other mercs have his SMGs, and other mercs will soon have his Katana. So unless the cloak is reworked from scratch as an infiltration tool and NOT a tanking tool, Phantom will be a tier LOWER than Arty as far as I am concerned. Because a merc without useful abilities that support his tool set, is a waste of a team mate.

What he needs

[list]
[] Real cloak, not this tanky stuff, REAL INVISIBILITY, look up the Infiltrator from Tribes, he had full invincibility until he went past a certain speed or took damage. Apply the same principles, when Phantom Sprints and when takes a hit, he’s visible, otherwise you can’t see him, even if he’s walking normally.
[
] Augments for the Katana less loadouts that give him more utility, like Mechanic for example, a perfect clutch loadout to use to go in and get a sneaky plant.
[*] Another ability, preferably a spotting ability that displays the location of deployables to his allies. “Enemy deployable here guys”, “mines here” “turret here”
[/list][/quote]

Well, I don’t agree with everything, but that’s insightful for sure.

I’d be very careful with full invisibility. Fighting something totally invisible with no good restrictions can be as infuriating as our pre-nerf Phantom, and also downright overpowered. It was viable and balanced for the Spy in TF2 because he can’t attack while invisible, and uncloaking makes some sound.


(watsyurdeal) #10

Maybe the best solution then is to take a hint from Blacklight Retribution, the katana in that game had a sort of lunge to it. Imagine if our Katana had a windup power attack, 250 ms windup, then Phantom would rush forward a few spaces and slash or thrust into the enemy.

This means players have time to hear it, and have time to dodge it since assuming it goes the way I imagine, he’ll be slower while preparing the attack.

And of course, there’s the other part about this that you didn’t get. Phantom has to be walking or something slower to stay invisible, if he runs, he becomes easier to see.

Now, think about that, people are going to be wall hopping, crouch jumping, sprinting as fast as possible to get to where they need to go. And on top of that, if the enemy is together holding a point or sticking together, that means that at most, Phantom will only get 1 kill, he’ll have to be smart to get more.

Now, that isn’t that bad, when you consider there’s typically always at least 2 medics per team in serious play, so even if he gets 1 medic, if he doesn’t finish her then Sawbonez or Phoneix will just rez them, nullifying that kill. If anything he’ll just slow people down.

Plus you gotta consider how fast he moves while walking, not very fast all.


(VincentRJaeger) #11

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;52406”]
Maybe the best solution then is to take a hint from Blacklight Retribution, the katana in that game had a sort of lunge to it. Imagine if our Katana had a windup power attack, 250 ms windup, then Phantom would rush forward a few spaces and slash or thrust into the enemy.

This means players have time to hear it, and have time to dodge it since assuming it goes the way I imagine, he’ll be slower while preparing the attack.[/quote]

I’d also go for this.
Having played BL:R for 250 hours in total (since a long time ago), I can see the Katana-system work fairly well here, possibly with one or two different changes.

As for the OP, regarding the cloak I reckon it’s universally agreeable by now that it needs to be more stealthy than tanky. I’m not a huge fan of being able to attack while cloaked though, that might possibly cause a stir so I would rather it decloaks as soon as you attack, as it is now.

Otherwise, yes.


(watsyurdeal) #12

[quote=“Jaeger;52427”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;52406”]
Maybe the best solution then is to take a hint from Blacklight Retribution, the katana in that game had a sort of lunge to it. Imagine if our Katana had a windup power attack, 250 ms windup, then Phantom would rush forward a few spaces and slash or thrust into the enemy.

This means players have time to hear it, and have time to dodge it since assuming it goes the way I imagine, he’ll be slower while preparing the attack.[/quote]

I’d also go for this.
Having played BL:R for 250 hours in total (since a long time ago), I can see the Katana-system work fairly well here, possibly with one or two different changes.

As for the OP, regarding the cloak I reckon it’s universally agreeable by now that it needs to be more stealthy than tanky. I’m not a huge fan of being able to attack while cloaked though, that might possibly cause a stir so I would rather it decloaks as soon as you attack, as it is now.

Otherwise, yes.[/quote]

That’s the idea

I was planning on keeping as is and have every action immediately uncloaking Phantom, the only trick is if we should implement the wind up at all.

I mean get people would be annoyed by something they can’t see killing them instantly, but think of how many characters actually die in one hit? and for that matter, the Phantom would still need to be really close to land a hit, otherwise he’ll miss and be completely left in the open.

And as I have said before, if a group sees you, you’re dead. I think people need to realize that there’s going to a number of cheap or unfair deaths in this game, and none of which are exclusive to Phantom. And the classes that do die in single PDP headshot, a Shotgun blast, or a Katana Lunge, are also arguably VERY powerful characters that are hard to kill with the right team.

A Sparks never has to put herself in danger to revive her team mates, an Aura’s station allows her and her allies to tank a ton of damage and or get quick fixes really easily. A Proxy can set mines just about anywhere and it usually kills people the vast majority of the time because it’s such an effective trap. And Kira’s Orbital Strike is immensely powerful, and could be used a lot more frequently and more easily than Skyhammer’s ability. And of course Vasilli…he’s lethal as fuck.

All of those classes have immense power to back up their lower health, it’s a justified debuff.

Though I can see why people would find it frustrating, so maybe the best thing to do is to slowly, slowly lower visibility till it feels just right. Where it’s hard to notice a cloaked Phantom when you’re moving at a good speed, but easier when you’re in defensive hold and he’s like a shadow amongst the wall.

EDIT: @Jojack

So I thought about what Jojack said in another thread, about not allowing the Phantom to do anything till after he is uncloaked.

This could work…but I have my doubts after Red Eye is added, and after people adjust to how he works. The average human reaction time seems to be about 250 visually, and 167 with audio cues, the ttk in this game is roughly around that 1/3 of a second region assuming the player shooting has excellent accuracy.

But then again, that’s assuming you decloak behind them…and there’s a lot of audio in the game that can distract, plus mic chatter.

So…I say give him the invis like I said…but disable all actions while cloaked, he has to deactivate the armor to begin doing anything. The delay to cloak is about a second right? So let’s make the decloak half that and have a distinct sound. Then let’s see what happens.


(VincentRJaeger) #13

I doubt a wind-up is necessary in this case, if I got what you mean right. If Phantom can get the upper hand on you, then you’re going to die. Same as how if a Fragger or Proxy gets the upper hand on you, you’re (generally) going to die, so giving Phantom a wind-up on decloak isn’t probably what we’re looking for. Unless you mean wind-up to cloaking, in which I think he should have it. Insta-cloak doesn’t really ring well in my ears personally.

Yeah, cheap unfair deaths are going to happen. It all boils down to player experience and skill in that case on how well you are able to prevent them for the time being, alternatively how well you can hold your anger down from such a death, so I agree with you there.

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;52443”]
A Sparks never has to put herself in danger to revive her team mates, an Aura’s station allows her and her allies to tank a ton of damage and or get quick fixes really easily. A Proxy can set mines just about anywhere and it usually kills people the vast majority of the time because it’s such an effective trap. And Kira’s Orbital Strike is immensely powerful, and could be used a lot more frequently and more easily than Skyhammer’s ability. And of course Vasilli…he’s lethal as fuck.

All of those classes have immense power to back up their lower health, it’s a justified debuff.

Though I can see why people would find it frustrating, so maybe the best thing to do is to slowly, slowly lower visibility till it feels just right. Where it’s hard to notice a cloaked Phantom when you’re moving at a good speed, but easier when you’re in defensive hold and he’s like a shadow amongst the wall.[/quote]

I reckon part of the frustration is how Phantom is percieved as a “Kill-Only” merc. Taking Vassili as an example, he is primarily there to take out key targets and does at first glance seem like a “Kill-Only” merc with little teamplay, but he has his recon ability, the heartbeat sensor. That’s why I like the ideas that were previously thrown out of giving Phantom some sort of Recon ability to give more incentive to teamplay.
As for the cloak, that’s, as you say, the most logical way to go from here on.


(Discordic) #14

Like most of what you said, but if he attacks or is achieving an objective he should decloak.
100% invisibility is fine if is is not moving but if he moves he should be somewhat visible.

Also Phantom is like Vas, his job is to take out key targets and make the enemy think twice before doing somthing


(Azure) #15

Lets say give him permanent invisibility (post nerf kind).

But! He breaks stealth on attack or taking blast damage. While shimmering when shot at. The stealth break last for 10 seconds of not attacking or receiving damage.

Now melee give him a buff where his attack does 100% more damage to targets that have been stationary for 2 seconds. (Making him a Turret/Camper/Vassili killer) Turn him into a powerful attacker vs defenders.

Primary Weapon - Katana (2nd attack deals 100% more damage to stationary targets mentioned above)
Secondary - Pistol/Machine Pistol
Melee - Knife (Faster movement faster attack)

I think he should be a melee focus’d class and by making his katana the primary instead of a SMG would balance out his lack of range vs his amazing melee


(Eox) #16

Oh ! In that case I think it looks fine. It’ll need a bit of monitoring just to be sure, but fine other wise.

[quote=“Discordic;52538”]Like most of what you said, but if he attacks or is achieving an objective he should decloak.
100% invisibility is fine if is is not moving but if he moves he should be somewhat visible.

Also Phantom is like Vas, his job is to take out key targets and make the enemy think twice before doing somthing[/quote]

Well, technically, if he attacks, he becomes visible while he’s doing that, then I’d say he takes him something lik 0.6 seconds to fade back to an invisible state. So I don’t think it’ll be that bad. And about objectives, well, I can’t find any real reason about why planting C4 or repairing an objective invisible would be OP. After all, you are not an engineer. And there’s some indications that prevents you when an objective is played : repair bars on EVs for exemple. You’ll have just to find him on a rather small area. An engineer will always be more efficient.


(loonyTop) #17

A better Phantom for everyone is if Phantom is removed from game.


(BBYipho) #18

Edit: Idea had too much crap in it. Just make the armor seperate and disable sprinting.

Old post.
[spoiler]I’m thinking of remaking my own topic but it probably is a better idea to shove in here instead and see your opinion. It is the idea of seperating the ability again but with a twist.

We all know we want cloaking with no armor and I’m all for it. However the devs did want him to atleast try helping in objectives so here’s my proposition of it being taking out of the cloak and into another ability for him.

He will have the armor as a 2nd ability I will make a list of how I think it should be and the pros and cons of it.

Description: He is using armor that is reflecting lights to create his cloaking. Why not make him use it to generate light? Perhaps enough to engulf the position of teammates he’s blocking and stopping laser pointers? Able to push objectives and body block for people like intended?

Pros:

  • He’ll have his armor again, maybe a little more, and be able to protect teammates doing objectives like an action hero should.
  • His teammates visability should be hard for people to shoot at without dealing with him.
  • He can revive down teammates while hiding them from view from gibbing.
  • Protects EV from most supports. Why is that laser pointer your support have isn’t working? (I think this is the highlight of it).
  • Can shoot his gun without this turning off.
  • Can plant and carry objectives. (Negatives will show counters to delivering).

Cons:

  • Activation requires 3-5 seconds to start.
  • Requires full reflective armor energy to start. Making cloaking on full cooldown for after.
  • Has a long cooldown of around 60-120seconds.
  • Cannot run while doing this.
  • Has to drop objective to start it.
  • Makes him a big noticable target to destroy.
  • The heat off this does 5 dmg to him a second, up to 8 seconds dealing 40dmg.
  • He’s such a bright sun shiny star ain’t he? Can visably see his light around a corner and can point him out in the brightness over his teammates.
  • Can’t stop grenades from harming teammates.
  • Kira can always start orbital before aiming it at the Phantom.

So pretty much hide teammates with light while highlighting himself. Mess with those laser pointers stopping, for a short time, airstrikes and markers. Mainly Skyhammer would lose his airstrike but still do nade damage when this happens, Arty just doesn’t activate or is used up, Kira can’t start on the point but can still drag it over.

I don’t know I could believe this idea is the smartest but then again this could just be one very stupid idea that no one would agree with.[/spoiler]


(XavienX) #19

The health, refractive armor and the visibility of the armor nerf was a good choice, but the melee slow turning needs to go. I expected the devs to reduce the Katana’s hitbox duration.


(watsyurdeal) #20

@Jojack

After playing him some more…definitely think Jojack’s suggestion has a lot of merit.

New cloak

  • No armor, no cloak drain on hit
  • No longer visible while moving, period
  • You flicker and spark like you do now when you take damage.
  • You cannot attack, plant objectives, revive allies, or do any sort of action while cloaked.
  • Cloak has a 1.0 second activation, and decloak time is 0.5 seconds. Both make a distinct noise.

There you go Eox, balanced Phantom for both sides and is viable in competitive as a close range ambusher. All he needs is a second ability to serve as his recon tool. I’m still prone to an emp nade to disable mines, turrets, healing station, etc.