Phantom Rebalance

(JJMAJR) #21

Speed allows players to cover a map faster, watching points that aren’t heavily defended, and deliver carryables faster. I seen how fast Proxy could run from a video on the character. Go from one side of Bridge (hotwire phase) to another in 0.5 seconds. Amazing defensive tool if paired with the right stuff.

But making him into a fragile speedster that moves fast and gets shredded would definitely not help competitive play. He doesn’t deal as much damage as Proxy could to individual targets. Proxy’s ability to use her mines offensively is offset by the fact that she needs to be really close in order for them to work. Many defensive set-ups could prevent Proxy from pushing because of that.

I’m not seeing Nader go into peoples’ faces with a cricket bat, even though her health/speed balance is better than Phantom’s. She’s just an easier to revive assault class.

If Phantom has a better health/speed balance, no EMP, and was played as if he was a cross between Nader and Bushwhacker, I’d bet he would have some potential.

Now, if you really want something that promotes melee play style…

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;198183”]I think removing the Armor, and getting a better cloak, 120 hp back, along with changing the EMP field to a Recon Field would be great.

I am not expecting him to be an S tier merc, but at least making him have a specific role as a close range Recon merc would really help a lot.[/quote]
Close range spotting. No detection indicator. Nice for people who think it’s wise to aggro a Skyhammer with a knife. Not so nice for people that wait around corners with a gun.

[quote=“Apofenas;198161”]Sure, but fast merc that suddenly appears before you with Katana is same frustrating as Aura or Proxy with shotgun with the exeption that 80/90 HP mercs are easier to kill. And ofc i would like to have at least some diversity in health pool for mercs. Also if u look at my suggestion, the 30 HP boost for 120 hp merc would be too much, don’t you think?

I guess you didn’t understand what i wrote there. I mean not to disable spotting ability, but to prevent it to mark your team mates as long as they stand inside your EMPJamming field.[/quote]
You keep changing what you are trying to say. You want Phantom to be a glass cannon without the help of abilities, and make him able to take more damage through another ability, which would be convoluted as F*** by the time that you make an iteration that makes everyone else happy.

Meanwhile I want a character that can pull weight in competitive without being broken. Something like a FS with two primaries would be much more useful compared to making Phantom a slower Phoenix, that traded in his healing and revives for a cloak and a jamming device.

Even if 120 HP is literally on 30% (I counted) of the characters right now, I don’t think that should be a barrier towards change. If we are seeing numbers like 90% (I’m looking at fire supports right now…) then yes, there’s too little diversity.

If Phantom and Turtle get 120 HP then that number would merely bump up to 37.5%.

By the way who was the one who came up with the EMP effect in the first place?

(Naonna) #22

http://puu.sh/qmM0P/e55146eb1c.jpg … This made me laugh when I saw it on the steam screen.

TL;DR at the bottom.

More to the point, however, since Phantom isn’t likely to be getting his sniper back any time soon, nor the needed armor/speed for the melee-oriented play style, the EMP based counter-style seems the next option worth trying out.

If the EMP is separated and given as a secondary ability, this would open up Phantom’s cloak/armor cool down to be reduced. (Honestly, I’d like it to go back to 6 seconds at the maximum. It sucks waiting around for it to recharge between every single fight.)

I understand that some users are arguing for either more armor or more stealth. Someone has to decide which it will be. Currently, in my opinion, Phantom excels at neither - especially with the reduction of his armor’s tank-y-ness and minimum cool down - and that’s only if he’s NOT shot a bunch of times to send that cool down to the max.

The concept of a TF2 style cloak that can be toggled on or off helps with positioning, but not ambushing, given the refractive armor’s current noise levels (Although sneaky helps a bit.) - Food for thought.

As of now, It should also be noted that the armor is difficult to escape with. Yes, the ‘armor’ blocks a bit of damage, but since you can currently be seen while moving even a centimeter, or by someone using their ears, it proves a bit useless for an escape post-firefight.

Considering that the cool down will be long enough for a fast merc to hunt you down before you re-cloak anyways… not wonderful.

TL;DR

I’d like to see the community’s overall views on if they feel Phantom deserves to be a armor-focused merc, or a stealth-focused merc. - Flanking without the extra HP provided by armor, or fighting up-front without a boost to stealth.

Since Spotting isn’t an option, the EMP’s separation to either a ranged or separate skill would add to his place in the team, and more define his role. - It’s rather hard to be sneaky when your enemy notices their sticky bombs don’t explode.

(Szakalot) #23

Amerika nailed it basically.

- EMP and Armor have to be separate abilities

  • EMP ‘dart’ would have actual use in comp play (though already separating EMP and Armor with independent cooldowns would go a long way)
  • ‘Dart’ would be a lot better than a grenade, as requirement for LoS makes it a bit harder (grenade would be far too easy, considering EMP already goes through walls).
(Orivar) #24

NO speed buff please. People will just rush with him and that’s not the point, right?

(hoyes) #25

I would maybe like some sort of device like the snitch(but smaller like the HBS) that could be thrown into an area of deployables that has an area of effect of ~20m that disables deployables for as long as it is there, for a maximum duration of 15 seconds. Call it disruption device and give it a cooldown of 20 seconds.

(sunrayCooler) #26

-You kill person.
-You find their dead body.
-You express your necrophilia.
-Everyone on the map is spotted for 6 seconds.
-60 minute cooldown; context action.
[/quote]

LMAO

(JJMAJR) #27

Shit, just realized that I said minutes and not seconds in that comment…

(SweetGenocide) #28

stares at the Jamcom hacking idea

Idea from the Brink Operative class, am rite? :stuck_out_tongue:

(Naonna) #29

‘-’ so… uh… can someone directly address my post up there? - Points about 5 posts up … I spent time writing that. At least someone tell me why I’m wrong or something. Maybe someone should copy-paste that and make a poll to see where the more educated and active community stands on the ‘fast vs tank-y vs utility’ situation of the refractive armor?

pls?

(Drac0rion) #30

@Naonna

I’ve always felt like Phantom’s rework could also take him to a direction of assault/recon.

So having a rambo Phantom with a decent shield from refractive armor could be a thing, but balance wise SD will have to look out from it being too powerful, as in letting all the noobs just become stealth tanks and walk through a hail of bullets with their weebstick and still be full HP when they start their first swing.
The shield should be broken rather fast with bullets imo, to prevent melee rushing, but I’d like it to be able to soak explosives better, so you can negate some actual damage with it.

Regarding his stealth aspect, I really don’t see SD improving the stealth any further than it is.

Sitting still and being to OHK lower HP mercs from stealth is already pretty powerful, it’s just one of the situations where it’s actually really strong. Other than sitting in one spot and waiting for the enemy to run into you, his stealth is rather visible for counterplay.

In all honesty, the stealth is fine to me, but it requires map knowledge + enemy locations to be used well without being seen. Some people want Phantom to be able to move in stealth right in front of the enemies, while it only provides enough stealth to sneak by the corner of the eyes of the enemy. In other words people should sneak flank the same way as with any other merc, trying to avoid vision. It’s just the stealth added to Phantom that further improves that sneaking style.
And since most of the time there isn’t another recon merc in my team when I’m Phantom and can’t spot the enemies for me, I simply have quit playing Phantom on offense over the time, as it requires to play more efficiently rather than just sitting in a corner as defense and waiting for the enemies to run into you.

I probably missed something, but it’s still rather early for me and well, it’s something. :slight_smile:

(JJMAJR) #31

[quote=“Naonna;198278”]More to the point, however, since Phantom isn’t likely to be getting his sniper back any time soon, nor the needed armor/speed for the melee-oriented play style, the EMP based counter-style seems the next option worth trying out.

If the EMP is separated and given as a secondary ability, this would open up Phantom’s cloak/armor cool down to be reduced. (Honestly, I’d like it to go back to 6 seconds at the maximum. It sucks waiting around for it to recharge between every single fight.)

I understand that some users are arguing for either more armor or more stealth. Someone has to decide which it will be. Currently, in my opinion, Phantom excels at neither - especially with the reduction of his armor’s tank-y-ness and minimum cool down - and that’s only if he’s NOT shot a bunch of times to send that cool down to the max.

The concept of a TF2 style cloak that can be toggled on or off helps with positioning, but not ambushing, given the refractive armor’s current noise levels (Although sneaky helps a bit.) - Food for thought.

As of now, It should also be noted that the armor is difficult to escape with. Yes, the ‘armor’ blocks a bit of damage, but since you can currently be seen while moving even a centimeter, or by someone using their ears, it proves a bit useless for an escape post-firefight.

Considering that the cool down will be long enough for a fast merc to hunt you down before you re-cloak anyways… not wonderful.

TL;DR

I’d like to see the community’s overall views on if they feel Phantom deserves to be a armor-focused merc, or a stealth-focused merc. - Flanking without the extra HP provided by armor, or fighting up-front without a boost to stealth.

Since Spotting isn’t an option, the EMP’s separation to either a ranged or separate skill would add to his place in the team, and more define his role. - It’s rather hard to be sneaky when your enemy notices their sticky bombs don’t explode.[/quote]

I would like to say that this still doesn’t give me understanding as to why you think that having an ability besides the EMP would be a better option for balancing Phantom.

If you wanted to say that “SD IS FUCKING DEAF AND WON’T LISTEN SO STFU” then, well, why bother talking about this in the first place?

[quote=“Naonna;198987”]’-’ so… uh… can someone directly address my post up there? - Points about 5 posts up … I spent time writing that. At least someone tell me why I’m wrong or something. Maybe someone should copy-paste that and make a poll to see where the more educated and active community stands on the ‘fast vs tank-y vs utility’ situation of the refractive armor?

pls?[/quote]

Quick question: how useless would Bushwhacker be when EMP cloak exists in the game?
At least Aura can revive and has the speed to do so.

People that like going rambo in the game shouldn’t be the reason that a player like myself can’t play by using their brain. Especially in a competitive game.

Phantom is a hard counter to a bunch of characters, and makes several of the characters he counters useless. But when people don’t run those characters, he dies in less than a second.

(JJMAJR) #32

No, you know what? I came from a game like this:

It turned into a game where everything got shredded by an automatic weapon, legitimate nade spam, easy and viable spawn camping, insane headshot multipliers, and the skill trees basically had only one viable path.

A list of things that had no use in that game:
Spotting
Stealth
Ammo
Regeneration

And a list of things that are absolute necessities:
DPS against enemies
DPS prevention
DPS from indirect attacks

And I am starting to see some nihilist shit right here. It’s not as bad as Ballistic, but the problem this game has is pretty much the same.

Useless stuff:
Deployables (Thanks Phantom!)
Stealth

Stuff that are absolute necessities:
DPS control
Spotting
Regeneration
Indirect attacks
Ammo (only because it comes with insane indirect attacks)
Objectives

I hate useless stuff. Don’t give me useless stuff. Useless stuff kills the game.

(Naonna) #33

(I was typing when you posted. thanks. =.=; - Deployables add verity and prevents this game from turning into an aim-only game. If you want that, go to ratz instagib.

Indirect attacks are basically just your explosives. Deployables also count in the form of mines and turrets - even if you somehow thing Phantom is overpowered with his temporary disable of them. At least now, there’s a way to disable an aura station or mines through walls, even if it’s very situational without a reliance on thunder.

Even with Phantom existing, you just called Aura’s healing station useless. )

Back to my original post.

Without stealth, why not just use Proxy, at that point? She has higher speed and more consistent damage output at close range and access to mines. She’s also an engineer.

If you’re going to be using phantom’s armor and claiming the kek-10 makes him great for up-front combat, why not use Sawbonez? - better sustain between battles and weaponry.

The only real use of the armor is the ‘first shot’ aspect. The armor allows phantom to shoot at the opponent while their bloom is already higher - allowing for easier head shots on stationary or deaf targets.
(Or crouch-walking/running past sniper sight lines, which doesn’t seem to do much, when crouch-walking is super slow and takes up time, and thus meter, and sprinting ALSO takes up meter for the same distance.)

This was fine when phantom was a sniper, as being stationary and having high burst damage made sense. - Now that Splash Damage wants him to be a close-range combatant, the armor feels as though it’s missing a real purpose and trying to be everything for all players. - Not to mention the noise, even while standing still. As a long-range sniper, this wasn’t a problem. Up close, it is.

The best fix, outside of changing the cloak itself, in my mind, is to make it timer based regardless of motion, and lower its max cool down back to it’s initial six. While removing the ‘minimum’ added on by the most recent buff via transferring the aoe disable to a secondary ability using the same timer bar - not allowing both at once, or alternatively, triggering the aoe disable upon attacking out of invisibility.

The fact that movement makes your visibility increase doesn’t work with a up-close play style as well. As a sniper, it made sense to stand still. In combat, this variant of the armor doesn’t allow for escapes as easily. You may tank some damage, yes, but it’s not exactly going to leave people wondering ‘where did he go?’

TLDR:
Flanking is currently done much better by Proxy, an engineer, and sustain/damage output done by Sawbonez, a medic. - While sneaking past sight lines is a good thing, and getting the first shot in is nice, there’s a massive maximum cool down on the cloak: leading to down time where one has to wait for the timer to go back down, assuming one makes an escape through the damage absorption of the armor.

Phantom’s current armor feels like it was meant for his sniper role. Without comparable burst damage at range, I’m not sure how many utility buffs it would take for Phantom to be on par with other snipers or even some medics. - As of now, his only true appeal is his ability to get the first shot in out of his invisibility, and to occasionally disable mines/healing stations. (Or if you’re a maniac, sword, but Kira does that pretty well now, too.)

(Naonna) #34

Help. The text walls are getting taller. At this rate, it will have some jerk’s name scribbled on it.

(JJMAJR) #35

[quote=“Naonna;199035”](I was typing when you posted. thanks. =.=; - Deployables add verity and prevents this game from turning into an aim-only game. If you want that, go to ratz instagib.

Indirect attacks are basically just your explosives. Deployables also count in the form of mines and turrets - even if you somehow thing Phantom is overpowered with his temporary disable of them. At least now, there’s a way to disable an aura station or mines through walls, even if it’s very situational without a reliance on thunder.[/quote]

Phantom’s not overpowered. He just hard counters too well and doesn’t put up a good enough fight against anything he doesn’t counter.

It’s the world’s shittiest co(k-paper-scissors (scissors OP mate) in existence. FYI Phantom’s the paper.

[quote=“Naonna;199035”]Even with Phantom existing, you just called Aura’s healing station useless. )

Back to my original post.

Without stealth, why not just use Proxy, at that point? She has higher speed and more consistent damage output at close range and access to mines. She’s also an engineer.

If you’re going to be using phantom’s armor and claiming the kek-10 makes him great for up-front combat, why not use Sawbonez? - better sustain between battles and weaponry.

The only real use of the armor is the ‘first shot’ aspect. The armor allows phantom to shoot at the opponent while their bloom is already higher - allowing for easier head shots on stationary or deaf targets.
(Or crouch-walking/running past sniper sight lines, which doesn’t seem to do much, when crouch-walking is super slow and takes up time, and thus meter, and sprinting ALSO takes up meter for the same distance.)

This was fine when phantom was a sniper, as being stationary and having high burst damage made sense. - Now that Splash Damage wants him to be a close-range combatant, the armor feels as though it’s missing a real purpose and trying to be everything for all players. - Not to mention the noise, even while standing still. As a long-range sniper, this wasn’t a problem. Up close, it is.

The best fix, outside of changing the cloak itself, in my mind, is to make it timer based regardless of motion, and lower its max cool down back to it’s initial six. While removing the ‘minimum’ added on by the most recent buff via transferring the aoe disable to a secondary ability using the same timer bar - not allowing both at once, or alternatively, triggering the aoe disable upon attacking out of invisibility.

The fact that movement makes your visibility increase doesn’t work with a up-close play style as well. As a sniper, it made sense to stand still. In combat, this variant of the armor doesn’t allow for escapes as easily. You may tank some damage, yes, but it’s not exactly going to leave people wondering ‘where did he go?’[/quote]
So in other words you want Phantom to remain able to destroy Bushwhacker’s meaning of existence while having the abilities of TF2’s Spy class.

You do know that players can’t pick any class they want to when they are already in the game, right? In TF2 everything hard countering specific classes while being weak to other classes is fair because you can choose any class you need before you respawn. In DB you need to bring in a squad and balance it to deal with the situations you think would appear in the map you would play.

Hard counters shouldn’t exist in this game because of that fact.

(Naonna) #36

So what should phantom excel at, in your opinion? At this point, nothing seems to stand out besides what I listed earlier.

(remarkableBusiness) #37

I think like you said phantoms cloak should be fully timer based and not movement based. I also think that he needs to be able to spot people and maby as another seperate ablitly be able to place a jammer that would either 1. Disable deployables or 2. Turn enemy deployables against them .( so like bushwakers turret will start to attack his own teamates and fletchers stickies hurt that fletchera teammates and not his enemies) even tho that might be a bit op . But mabye it will have the same effect on both teams no matter which teams phantom places the jammer

(JJMAJR) #38

Phantom should excel at ambushing, using friendly intelligence to control the battlefield in a greater degree than anyone else, and if he needs to have more offensive power I would rather it be in the form of spotting like the other recons, or explosives like the other assaults. Kunai bombs that spot enemies, anyone?

I only favor the Comms Hack idea because it encourages players to play intelligently.

Phantom’s cloak really should be better when he’s standing still. No noise, immunity to spotting by characters other than Redeye, and total transparency should occur when Phantom is standing still and being patient.

I also think that Phantom should have a better health/speed balance so that he could cover the map more easily and be able to deal with objectives more effectively.

This way he doesn’t hard counter anyone but is still able to pull weight on his team, provided he doesn’t go LOL MELEE on other people.

I do know that Phantom shouldn’t excel at hard-countering a bunch of characters as long as the DB squad system is in place. That is the extent as to where I draw the line here.

(hoyes) #39

I like phantom being tanky, as stealth is harder to balance than tankiness, and it gives a slight bit of stealth more power as it gives you something to fall back on if you are spotted. My idea:

-Seperate emp from armour
-Increase duration of cloak by 10%
-revert cooldown
-Greatly reduce sound generated by the armour
It would make phantom a bit more able to actually get into enemy lines by reduci g the sound generated by the cloak, so he can disable the deployables they may have with an emp pulse that disable deployables for 10seconds and is on a cooldown of 25 seconds.This could then by taken advanyage of by the team to wreak havoc on their defenses. The way to stop the emp would be to reclaim your deployable and then place it back down.

(JJMAJR) #40

If EMP stays I want a class that hard counters explosives.