Phantom all but a fun merc / lacking an identity

[Gi.Am]

[quote=“BushDweller;57534”][quote=“Lumi;57531”][quote=“BushDweller;57427”]How to win with phantom

1. Go invisible

2. Walk up to someone

3. Headshot them, getting you a 10 bullet advantage on your opponent, before they could react.[/quote]

Completely besides my point. It’s not about how to win. It’s about what makes him special.[/quote]

What do you mean what makes him special…?

He was never advertised as a melee elite ninja tank.

“I’m like a shark… on land… with a gun”

He was advertised for stealing a high tech armor suit that could make him less visible. Which it surely does, people don’t notice you if you wall jump over them whilst cloaking. You can still do what he used to do, just not ridiculously easy as it used to be[/quote]

Except that the alternative line is “people call me a backstabber, heck I stab you in the front …” Also I have yet to see art of Phantom that has him prominently wielding his guns instead of a katana. He is a hybrid with a clear focus on closerange engagement (his overall weapon package is the most effective at close to near midrange).

But I’m curious how do you manage to walljump over someone while cloaked?
I mean if you try it from the front every enemy that isn’t legaly blind will shoot you before you get in range. If you do it from the side/back/cover you are not doing anything special, since every Merc can do that and the fact that the rest doesn’t come with a proximity warning makes it easier for them to do.

And that is our point yes you can do good with Phantom, but you do good with phantom the same way you do good with any other Merc (good aim and positioning), but every other Merc on top of that, has an ability that clearly sets a role / benefits the team / gives a player another way, of having an impact aside from good aim/positioning or in the case of sniperrifles/special weapons considerably increases the lethality of the Merc.

What Phantom gets is the first shot, if he is not spotted/stands still, but he still has to fight a regular firefight after that first shot.
The way his whole stealth package is working under the current patch simply isn’t giving him enough to set him apart.

Personaly I still hope that the changes they did last patch where to set all the balancing screws on low to gradually tweak him into a good position for all sides.

[Ronan]

[quote=“Ardez;57232”]Use phantom to flank, not to rush headfirst into an enemy. You can easily get off the first shots if you get behind them.

Focus on gunplay, not as much on melee. He is a very strong merc for exploiting the flanks of an enemy team. Use the shield as extra health when crossing open spaces, not as much for invisibility(as he is fairly visible with it active).[/quote]

Have you even watched his merc rolecall? The reason his cloak was the way it was, and I quote what the rolecall says. “Use Phantom’s cloak to sneak behind enemy lines or even right through them”, you can’t even sneak around them anymore. The purpose of his cloak’s original shield was to make him more resillient when getting to the back-lines, or rushing right in. People say he wasn’t “melee centered”, but, they gave him the single most high damage, close ranged melee weapon in the game, along with the chopper perk? C’mon now. Lets be logical.

I mean this in all the respect I can possibly give to you, but, your views are… seemingly rather closed minded in how Phantom was designed to begin with.

[Ronan]

[quote=“Lumi;57365”][quote=“Gi.Am;57353”]

Now I don’t say bring back the old phantom he was not that great either he had similar problems as he has now (only less pronounced), while steamrolling new players in a bad way. Personaly I hope that future buffs give him a clear use case / job. Heck even a Merc as situational as Rhino has a well communicated niche, where he shines.[/quote]

This is exactly what I mean! Phantom is missing his identity. It’s not really about buffing or nerfing.[/quote]

Something I’ve suggested and will suggest until the day I die is the the fact that Phantom should get something like the Payday 2 crew gets. The ability to ‘mark’ someone during his cloaked duration. This would be on a charged-based system, and it’d have 2-3 charges. Phantom uses a charge to mark out crucial targets whilst being cloaked, haling to his ‘recon’ based title. Let marked enemies be shown through walls for a set duration. Because right now, it’s as if Phantom just has a sheet thrown over his head, thinking he’s invisible. It’s not stealthy whatsoever.

To add those things, though. The cooldown and visibility of the cloak will need to be fixed. Maybe add the health back to 120, as with the shield in it’s current place, that nerf was rather hefty. Sure, he can still tank sniper shots as advertised in his rolecall, so, I can’t complain all that much.

What’s sad is that a lot of people just got upset about Phantom instead of wanting to learn how to counter him, which, indeed, there were quite a few ways. IE; when old-Phantom rushed you with his katana during his cloak, his cloak doesn’t last forever, so, people saying they waste entire mags into it before he kills them because they attacked him with his DAMAGE SOAKING ARMOR. That’s what it does, made him get close. All I did, and I killed any Phantom that’d come up to me, was… walk backwards. The right-click that they’d try to hit with had a very short range, and even the swing. Walk backwards and aim for the head, in that close of a range, headshots should be a breeze.

Which, is where I understand the “move slower with katana” nerf came in, but, if that was added, then in my eyes, some of the other nerfs weren’t. Which, luckily, they said they’re looking into announcing some news for another melee change this upcoming week, along with a new merc(maybe). I’m hoping that it’s Red Eye, so they can gather data on how he does against Phantom, how much of a hard counter he is to him, etc, and they can buff Phantom accordingly. I mean, Red Eye has 120 health, why can’t Phantom? I mean, Red Eye is literally a direct counter to him. He should’ve been released before any nerfs happened in my eyes.

TL;DR Change the visibility and cooldowns back. Maybe health. Add a ‘spotter’ based ability.

[Lumi]

Actually I would fancy Phantom much more and it would give him a clear purpose if he would be completely invisible for 30seconds, with 30s of cooldown and no shield whatsoever. If you shoot, stab or get shot you loose the cloak. This way it would clearly set him as the flanker. He could easily run past a firefight to start shooting and chopping from the back.

I know many people don’t fancy complete invisibility in video games but other games have shown it to work. It’s simple: as long as you’re invisible you’re not taking part in the fight and are not allowed to attack, if you do you lose your invisibility. Right now Phantom can’t even do any of it right, nor is he allowed to attack while cloaked but he doesn’t become completely invisible ether.

Look at Natural Selection 2’s cloaking mechaninc. It works wonders. Countless times did I get attacked from behind because there was a completely invisible enemy. But I had and will not have anything to complain because as soon as I the attack is started, then the invisibility goes to hell.

And if you think that having complete cloak is too much of an advantage then why not downgrade his HP to 90 and remove his primary smg and give him the tolen or other automatic pistols, just like Sparks has.

It would clearly give him a role, with a defined strategy and something to be weary about in a fight. Right now all I see happening is failed flanking attemps from Phantoms, because to be succesful they need to act exactly how any regular merc would do to flank.

[Ronan]

[quote=“Lumi;57669”]Actually I would fancy Phantom much more and it would give him a clear purpose if he would be completely invisible for 30seconds, with 30s of cooldown and no shield whatsoever. If you shoot, stab or get shot you loose the cloak. This way it would clearly set him as the flanker. He could easily run past a firefight to start shooting and chopping from the back.

I know many people don’t fancy complete invisibility in video games but other games have shown it to work. It’s simple: as long as you’re invisible you’re not taking part in the fight and are not allowed to attack, if you do you lose your invisibility. Right now Phantom can’t even do any of it right, nor is he allowed to attack while cloaked but he doesn’t become completely invisible ether.

Look at Natural Selection 2’s cloaking mechaninc. It works wonders. Countless times did I get attacked from behind because there was a completely invisible enemy. But I had and will not have anything to complain because as soon as I the attack is started, then the invisibility goes to hell.

And if you think that having complete cloak is too much of an advantage then why not downgrade his HP to 90 and remove his primary smg and give him the tolen or other automatic pistols, just like Sparks has.

It would clearly give him a role, with a defined strategy and something to be weary about in a fight. Right now all I see happening is failed flanking attemps from Phantoms, because to be succesful they need to act exactly how any regular merc would do to flank.[/quote]

Except that’s not who Phantom is. 30 seconds of invisibility until he attacks and then a stupid 30 second cooldown? That’s… crazy talk. That means after killing one target, since his health would be 90, he’d die almost instantly, making him even more worthless than he currently is. Know how much happens in 30 seconds in a fast-paced game like this? C4 can go off, disarmed, objectives lost, and Phantom would just sit there with 90 health, his only ability on that long of a cooldown. They’d have to make him as fast as sparks if not faster, and he’s not made to be that fast. Anyone can randomly shoot and misfire of a gun and you lose your cloak going by what you said. It’s not practical in the least, no offense.

TL;DR- His cloak should be rolled back to where it was visibility wise, put the cooldown at 8 seconds so it’s between 6 and 10. Add a ‘spotting’ ability. And maybe put his health back.

[BushDweller]

@Ronan so you want him to be easy mode? Fragger gets like 30 second cooldown for each grenade. You don’t see people complaining. Proxy is basically a 90 hp sack of nothing with proxy mines you forger about, but people excel with that.

I don’t know how you can’t sneak past people with the cloak, wall jumping/long jumping while VISIBLE with ANY merc gets past people without them noticing, and i am talking about level 20+ games. So with a cloak is so much easier. You really must be doing something wrong because i see many people excelling with him and still saying he is op. And i quote from multiple people “just means noobs cant use him”

P. S : I like your spotting idea

[Ronan]

@BushDweller

Having his cloak be less visible is far from easy mode. It’s apart of his kit; just like how Nader can suicide bomb herself upon death. Should that be on a 30 second timer because I don’t like being blown up by it?

I can use him just fine, I just enjoyed some of the older things he had on him. I was for him being tweaked, but, I’d have just liked to have seen Red Eye released before they did such. See how a hard counter would balance him out some. Just because a merc gets kills, doesn’t mean he’s fun. Hell, when Turtle comes out, it’ll be fun to use his shield. But right now, it’s not fun to use the cloak as Phantom because it’s not a cloak.

P.S- Thanks. It adds in the least something for teamplay.

[Lumi]

The fact that Phantom is somewhat of a loner doesn’t bother me, hence him lacking a spotting ability neither. Heck, most offensive mercs don’t ever really feel like they need to stick to their team up until when they need health or ammo, but that’s another subject for another thread.

@BushDweller I don’t know to whom you were writing when saying that one can’t sneak past people with phantom when one can easily do that with other mercs. But, at least I can sneak past enemies with any merc, hence with Phantom too, since as you pointed out his invisibility makes it easier, yes. BUT, why would I feel compelled to use him when I can do similar kind of flanking with other mercs. If Phantom can’t just run past a firefight or right through it then double back and be in the back of the enemy within a few seconds I don’t see the point. Heck, that is why his cloak time is so short to begin with.

@Ronan I was suggesting a further nerf to his health just if it seemed that his constant backstabing ability would prove to powerful. And 30s of cooldown is nothing. Skyhammer’s airstrike ranges in the minute + somtehing (I don’t remember the exact amount). Now with the extra health reduction he might seem frail, but he could suprise a bunch of enemies and chop down 2 or 3 before they would realize anything was going on. Now in a world where Phantom could through complete invisibility reach the enemy’s frontline consistently, having a low cooldown would actually work against him, as enemies would learn to constantly check their backs. The more the cooldown would be increased, the more Phantom would have to wait to perform a flanking maneuver, yes, but it would also increase the chance that the enemies would be otherwise occupied when he actually hits them. Finally, don’t underestimate the power of suprise. It might not have been discussed about this much before Phantom, but many times have I witnessed, been part of or suffered from a sneak back attack from any random merc. And even weak mercs such as Aura or Proxy, managed to kill a couple or more of people before they got incapacitated. And those use loud weapons, what advantage do you recon Phantom would have with his katana?

In the end anyone can, with enough skill, catch enemies unsuspiciously from the back but it takes time to go around. Phantom should be able to do it much faster.

[Ronan]

@Lumi

You’d be surprised how little people are checking their backs. You still didn’t seem to go over the point that a 30 second cooldown with it being his only ability would make him literally have to sit behind walls and do nothing. You’d be surprised at how fast Phantom dies even now. The cooldown needs a balance. Not too long like the 10 seconds it is, which, is quite obvious with how most Phantom players, including myself who has played him since closed-beta have seen. After killing really only 1 player without being shot to hell. At least with old-Phantom you could get in, get 1-2 kills with the katana or SMG, and get out because your thing will be OFF COOLDOWN. If you’re on a 30 second cooldown, and even with the kek10, you aren’t Skyhammer or Fragger with very powerful guns. Yes, the kek10 is strong, but, once Phantom eats all the bullets in the kek10, he’s mostly screwed. No way you’d be in melee range with the current katana speed nerf and the melee sitting where it is(luckily being fixed).

I will defend until the day he’s changed that the cooldown should be 8 seconds, along with duration. That’s plenty of time for Phantom to run to where the action is, sneak through the enemy lines, because that’s what he’s GOOD AT. Sneaking THROUGH the enemy. As you said, ANY merc can sneak around behind and flank, but Phantom was good at a different type of flanking, literally going through their line of defense. That’s how he always caught people off guard. He should be a front-line recon, either having to decide to use the ‘spotter’ ability as I’ve stated to mark out crucial targets, or keep pushing in to kill 1-2 specific people. This isn’t TF2 where you can backstab people. Trust me, it’s a lot harder than you’d think, seeing as everyone is CONSTANTLY moving, even when they’re camping. Backstabbing is something that works for TF2 for the way the gamemode works. But, as I’ll repeat. This isn’t TF2.

If you want what I think should be fixed on him?

• Make the cooldown/duration 6/6+/8/8+ seconds. 6+/8+ due to the ability duration perk.
• Put the visibility back to where it was. He was easy to see then, but, it at least was enough to catch people off guard(including higher level players), and it’s not this… sheet, that he throws over his head like it is currently.
• And this is of course, if they listen to me. Spotter ability, furthers the point of Phantom taking to the front-line recon position that whilst he isn’t claimed to do, fits VERY well with him.

With this, as you said, ANY merc can flank. But, with what I’ve suggested, he can get in, mark some targets/kill a high priority, and cloak back out before he dies. Being the frontline recon/assassin that he seemed to be from the start.

[Lumi]

@Ronan

I agree with you that people move alot and backstabbing isnt as easy as advertised. I also agree that some people do check their backs often. But you can, and I just did today, kill three people in a row with the katana. Maybe in comp you wouldn’t be able to as people tend to use their mics. Now the cooldown is only 10s if you use up all the cloak. I have managed to quickly reuse the cloak many times by either using it for a 3s sprint and then killing or by remembering to turn it off when not needed. I actually think that 10s is not that much. Unless you need it to run away, but since you’re not completely invisible anyway, what’s the point.

To be honest, I have been playing Phantom more today and his invisibility is total BS, one can be seen miles away by most players. Although I did manage to long jump above an enemy today in one of terminal map’s tunnel without being seen. So some people are really oblivious to it. Nonetheless, I think it shouldn’t be the low end that fails to see you, but the high end of players that manage to see you. If you get what I mean.

So when I do manage to get close and from behind I do get some enjoyment from using the katana and chopping people, but more often than not I have to switch to my guns before I’m done chopping, which removes my smile. Worst is that I actually need to put some effort into reaching people’s back effectively without being seen, which makes me lose alot of time for a couple of possible kills and an assured death behind. Time which I would have spent killing more from a frontal position with any other merc. This kinda bothers me. Doesn’t end up being satisfying, because to play phantom the way it was meant to be played I always feel like I’m under-performing and not helping my team as well as I could. Maybe the only way I could see it work better long run, would be with a teammate sparks to keep on reviving me. And still…

He needs fixing indeed, I don’t pretend to know how much and what, but a good start would be a complete invisibility. If not that, then atleast give us a visual perseption of how visible one is. Because I know that while moving I’m more visible but I can’t see any reflection of that on Phantom’s arms.

[Lautreamont]

There should be a way to see the playtime of people on the forum. All these retarded opinions are infuriating. Phantom is fine, his katana is for killing lone players (mostly sparks and vaselines, or engineers doing something important). Flanking with anyone but Phantom is way harder in min level 10 servers because people are more aware of their surrounding. I tried him today with the stock loadout and I had fun with him… Being able to take people by surprise is a huge advantage and you can unknot tons of situation with him. (sneaky plants are fun too).

[Lumi]

@wonderfulQuest

First of all I don’t see how knowing people’s playing time would change anything. But for your information I’m close to 140h and neither I nor others who agree with me are exposing a retarted view. We’re merely saying that Phantom is lacking an identity and even in min level 10 servers you can flank with anyone. And saying Phantom’s katana is for loners is an argument one can then extend to any other merc’s melee weapon. Hence our point: Phantom isn’t exeptional at all. Any other merc can do what he does, granted the blanket effect being only his.

[Ronan]

@Lumi

That’s my point about the cloak where it is right now. Prior to the nerf, I believe it was in a good spot. Decently cloaked whilst still being able to be seen by people who were REALLY looking. It was a nice balance in all actuality. If you didn’t see him, you got stabbed, and if you did, you had a fighting chance. Nowadays, I can be standing still, as something I’ve posted prior. In a pub server, a level 1, someone entirely new to the game, saw me during a flank, and shot me. Proceeding to say “were u supposed to be sneaky? i saw u so easily”.

@wonderfulQuest

What should playtime have to do with much of anything? I have 43 hours total on this game. That is a decent amount of time on the game enough to get to the level 10 that I am at, and I know a decent enough about the game. Phantom still does what he does, sure. ‘Retarded opinions’ someone apparently doesn’t like anyone else having a view about something they eel strongly about. Heaven forbid we have ideas! There’s nothing wrong with wanting him tweaked from where he is currently. Hell, even the devs said this is not the last time he’ll be visited and tweaked upon.

[jetJester]

[quote=“BushDweller;57427”]How to win with phantom

1. Go invisible

2. Walk up to someone

3. Headshot them, getting you a 10 bullet advantage on your opponent, before they could react.[/quote]

1 Go invisible
2 Get spotted by everyone on min level 10 servers because his cloak make an absurd amount of noise, sometimes (when he was usable against decent players) i would prefer to not even use his cloak if i was already behind enemies just because of that

And no guys you can’t be seriuous about him being a good merc, the fact that he sucks is very clear, his abilities are invisibility (terrible) and katana (decent).
The flanking thing can be done with everyone (even better sometimes) and in 1v1 gunfights he loses or have 50-50 to most of the mercs.
I approve the thing that you should be able to see the gametime on this forum like on steamforum, where you could have seen that all those that wanted a nerf on phantom pre patch had 50 or less hours

imho he should be changed to an assasin focused class rather than a fighting class that can fight on the frontlines

[Azure]

What I see with the current state of Phantom.

Phantom CAN do well but requires the enemy team to be lower in skill to you.

Who doesn’t hit TAB the moment they join a game though? You want to know what the enemy team has.
So when you see a Phantom your immediate response is to pick a merc that will do well against him. Then during that game you will position yourself so you can see the locations where a phantom can ‘flank’ from (Some maps are on the linear side…).
I would also stretch that putting a Phantom on the team NERFS everyones ability to flank that game.

So in short Phantom requires too much skill to play in his current state.

[Ronan]

@Azure

Too much skill to play? I don’t see that, per say. What’s sad is that they forced his armor to be used in how people didn’t want it to be used. As a front line defense making him an assault merc over the recon role. A level 16 player had just started playing Phantom since his nerf and tried to go melee for the majority of the game. They went 2/25. 1 kill with the katana, and other withh the default SMG on his default loadout. Someone to be level 16 must be playing the game for a considerable amount of time. I mean. I have 51 hours on the game now. Not to mention the level 16 complained that every merc we were using was broken, and that Phantom is useless, etc.

Phantom works if the other team is stupid, indeed. But, once most players see a Phantom, per say. Especially since he went on free rotation, EVERYONE, even the people good with Phantom are being found out, along with the fact that more people are seeing how his usefulness pre-nerf was far more than what it is right now. Hell, even players who said he should be deleted said he didn’t deserve the treatment he received.

[Kaos88]

That’s where people are going wrong with him. Don’t look at him as a melee class. They are terrible in a FPS game, no1 wants it. Look at him as a flanker who uses his Kek 10 to kill every1. A Phantom that knows what they are doing can be top fragging no prob and still annoy the hell out of every1. Only this time he still requires good aim and you can be a bad phantom now. Instead of relying on cheap melee kills which no1 likes to die by ( even though he still gets plenty of those when flanking behind every1. You just can’t kill the entire team now )

#1 tip, Use your damn gun. The Kek-10 is amazing and you will always get the 1st shot off.

[Lumi]

[quote=“Kaos88;58656”]That’s where people are going wrong with him. Don’t look at him as a melee class. They are terrible in a FPS game, no1 wants it. Look at him as a flanker who uses his Kek 10 to kill every1. A Phantom that knows what they are doing can be top fragging no prob and still annoy the hell out of every1. Only this time he still requires good aim and you can be a bad phantom now. Instead of relying on cheap melee kills which no1 likes to die by ( even though he still gets plenty of those when flanking behind every1. You just can’t kill the entire team now )

#1 tip, Use your damn gun. The Kek-10 is amazing and you will always get the 1st shot off.[/quote]

Wow, so you’re saying I should play Phantom as I would play Sawbonez but without the medpacks and revives. Or wait, I could use Nader and get an extra 10HP plus grenades and martyrdom! Wow, so wait… Does that mean that if Phantom shouldn’t be played melee he’s ultimately redundant? Yes it does!

This is our point. If not melee than what? Phantom has no identity. He either manages to melee and or through almost complete invisibility reaches the back of the enemy quickly or he’s just like any other merc out there. And why do we need a merc that can do less than all the other offensive mercs? Hell, even Sawbones who is a healer can do the same. Right now Phantom doesn’t know what he is.

[Ronan]

@Lumi

The Phantom during the closed beta, whilst overpowered, WORKED. He played as he was displayed in his trailer. His primary was a katana, and his secondary was a pistol. Whilst his cloak made him 90% invisible.

That’s what they need to go back to. Remove the primary and make it the katana. Give him a semi-auto handgun for his secondary, and let him and slash. Put the visability back to where it was prior to this nerf, or maybe even less visible, since people complain about him having the kek10, even. Go to his roots, what made him powerful then, and tweak them from there. He could be very balaced from THAT base. Removes the “OP” primary everyone complains about. Makes him melee focused like he was before, and made him the lone wolf people enjoyed playing as. THAT Phantom was one who had an indentity.

[Lumi]

[quote=“Ronan;58684”]@Lumi

The Phantom during the closed beta, whilst overpowered, WORKED. He played as he was displayed in his trailer. His primary was a katana, and his secondary was a pistol. Whilst his cloak made him 90% invisible.

That’s what they need to go back to. Remove the primary and make it the katana. Give him a semi-auto handgun for his secondary, and let him and slash. Put the visability back to where it was prior to this nerf, or maybe even less visible, since people complain about him having the kek10, even. Go to his roots, what made him powerful then, and tweak them from there. He could be very balaced from THAT base. Removes the “OP” primary everyone complains about. Makes him melee focused like he was before, and made him the lone wolf people enjoyed playing as. THAT Phantom was one who had an indentity.[/quote]

Agreed, in the end we can talk in circles but I believe that he needs an identity. We can give suggestions, request some going back, but ultimately it is SD who has to choose and do the changes. I hope they will.

In the end, thanks alot to those who made me understand that I’m not alone in this idea that phantom is bland, no OP or too nerfed, but just that: bland and lacking an identity. I’m glad there are others with the same opinion.