PDP-70

(Ghosthree3) #1

Ok, this might seem weird but, this gun needs nerfs.

Why? It’s not even the best sniper, why would it need nerfs?

The reason it needs nerfs is because it is a very low skill high reward weapon. In fact it is THE highest low skill high skill reward weapon. Its design practically encourages skill-less sniper play - body shotting - and the damage done with that is frankly, ridiculous. It does 45 damage to the body at any range with 100% accuracy at 201RPM which pretty much makes it a Dreiss with double damage that has practically no drawbacks.

If they do accidentally hit a head - and you know it’s an accident because those guys aren’t aiming for heads - it has a chance to gib and deals 90 damage with a follow up shot coming pretty much before you realise you’ve been hit. It also instant kills and gibs all light mercs.

It also has a clip size of 9, so even if you do somehow miss a shot or two it really doesn’t matter, as all you need is 3 to kill any merc that’s not Fragger/Rhino, there it’s 4. Assuming you don’t hit a head.

There’s only two drawbacks I can see for this weapon is how fast you go through ammo, but since people should be resupplying you this isn’t really problem. You will also lose any sniper battle against a sniper that has a real sniper - although if you dodge his first shot you probably win that too. If you can avoid this though you’re good to go!

Now I know what you’re thinking, “But at higher levels of play this gun will never be used because it’s so bad! Surely that means it doesn’t need any nerfs”. And you would be right, except because this gun is never ever going to be used in competitive play we don’t even need to consider balancing for it! We can just balance it for pub play where it rapes face.

This is the only thing in the entire game I consider to be unskilled, everything else requires a reasonable amount of skill to do well with, but this does not.

tl;dr, skill/reward ratio is fucked on this gun

(watsyurdeal) #2

I have to agree…

(Ghosthree3) #3

EDIT: Nvm Youtube was being dumb.

(avidCow) #4

EH, I don’t see anything amazing about the PDP in that video. Constant OHK insta-gib videos on other hand…

PDP might sound good on paper but I’d like to see it take over from the other snipers in comp before talking about changes.

(Ghosthree3) #5

You won’t, because it’s not a better weapon, if you’d read the OP you’d see that I touched on this. It is though, a weapon that is far too rewarding when driven by low end skill. It allows people with really no skill at all to keep up in pubs with players that have far greater skill. It is too easy to use for how effective it is. It’s infuriating to play against and frankly pisses me off.

(watsyurdeal) #6

The most obvious nerf is it’s rate of fire, after that, probably a clip size nerf.

(avidCow) #7

You won’t, because it’s not a better weapon, if you’d read the OP you’d see that I touched on this. It is though, a weapon that is far too rewarding when driven by low end skill. It allows people with really no skill at all to keep up in pubs with players that have far greater skill. It is too easy to use for how effective it is. It’s infuriating to play against and frankly pisses me off.[/quote]

I don’t really follow the logic here. If it allows lesser players to keep up then it would be good in comp also. If it has such a low skill floor and poor skill-ceiling it should probably be rebalanced.

(Ghosthree3) #8

That’s what I’m saying the problem is.

(Szakalot) #9

you’re saying it like people don’t have to aim with it. just ‘press x to kill enemies’.

still gotta aim, and still can miss. Yes its easier than other sniper rifles, but very poor considering lack of instagib (you can still get it, its just not very likely)

(Ghosthree3) #10

[quote=“Szakalot;36721”]you’re saying it like people don’t have to aim with it. just ‘press x to kill enemies’.

still gotta aim, and still can miss. Yes its easier than other sniper rifles, but very poor considering lack of instagib (you can still get it, its just not very likely)[/quote]
Of course you still have to aim it. But considering the 100% acc. at range, and the fact that is has a scope, and that it quite possibly has the highest short term DPS in the game, it’s still too easy. At range you can pretty much be guaranteed that you can kill whoever you target before they kill you, only another sniper can beat you, everyone else is a non threat and you’re free to calmly take your time and spam at their body.

I know it lacks instagib unless you land the killing blow as a headshot - which frankly isn’t an unreasonable ask - but I’m not exactly talking about high level play here. You don’t NEED to instagib, you just need to drop them as fast as possible and odds are they aren’t going to be revived, and if they are it’s certainly not going to be before you can gib them or kill the medic.

I can’t stress enough that it’s not that this gun is OP, it’s that the skill/reward ratio is messed up.

It’s just dumb that they can deal so much free poke damage so quickly to people moving in their LoS. They don’t even have to kill them, on anyone but Fragger - hell even Fragger - taking just one hit as you enter an area is a BIG deal. And they can do this rapidly, to multiple people.

(Gi.Am) #11

First of The PDP is not basically a Dreiss. The Dreiss has almost double ROF and more importantly can be hipfired.

Also the PDP only gibs on headshot kills (like any other sniperrifle) if you go for “unskilled bodyshots” only, you would need 3 shots to down a (medium) player + the same for finishing him. That means the PDP used in an unskilled fashion would need 6 bullets to do the job a skilled Moa does with 1.

The main reason to take a sniper in the first place is to instantly take someone out without a chance for a medic to revive (everything else is K/D boosting). The PDP while annoying as hell, gives medics ample oppurtunity to revive. (Take the video while impressive around 80% of the kills could have been nullified if a medic was near, especially with a sparks).

(Ghosthree3) #12

I didn’t say it was a Dreiss, I’m simply drawing a very large similarity. The fact it can’t be hitfired is offset by the fact that it is meant for long range attacks and has 100% acc. though I feel.

I am aware that it only gibs on headshot kills, no need to bring that up. And while yes it takes 3 shots to take down a medium player, they are then immobile and it should really not take 3 more shots to gib the body, you can quite easily hit the head. Also its power to switch target so quickly with a high chance of doing more work is strong enough that sometimes gibbing isn’t even necessary. Though now we have Sparks that might be different.

Absolutely. But again, I’m not talking about high level play in which it is not used. In pub play ‘annoying’ becomes a real threat, simply tagging players as they enter an area is a huge deal for your team.

(Gi.Am) #13

  1. PDP vs Dreiss. You argued that the PDP is like a Dreiss with double damage 100% accuracy and now drawbacks. First every weapon in this game has 100% accuracy when scoped in (ADS) and I pointed out a very big drawback the PDP can’t be hipfired. On longrange the PDP gets outclassed by the other snipers (especially when counter sniping). And using the PDP as a weapon for more agressive vassilis that stay mobile, flank and do their job from more of a midrange position doesn’t work because at that point hipfire becomes mandatory.

  2. I felt it important to point out, that a PDP that gibs, is a PDP that landed a skillfull headshot. Someone who is incacipated has the same HP as he has normaly so yeah finishing mediums with bodyshots only would take 3 with the PDP. The point I argue is that the PDP is fairly balanced compaired to the other snipers, because you trade the ability to do quick follow up shots (for correcting mistakes or hitting multiply targets) with a higher need to do follow ups and the highten possibility that medics will negate the damage you do.

Sure quite often it is enough to incacipate enemies first and take care of them later. But sometimes its not. The weakness of the PDP is that no ammount of skill will help you in the latter situation.

All that is reason, for most snipers to choose the MOA over the PDP but that doesn’t mean you can’t use it (Bitey did take the PDP into dirtycups and made a good impression with it). You just have to weight the pros and cons and decide what is working for your team.

What you see as a problem in Pubs is not the PDPs fault it simply capitalizes on the mistakes of your team. Running into a sniper one after another. No decent counter sniper. Medics that are busy charging enemies and selfhealing instead of picking teammates up.

Because of faulty actions on your team. More situations in pubs are of the kind where the PDP is good enough and can shine. While less situations would demand a MOA.

(Ghosthree3) #14

I should stop reading here since I know that’s hilariously not true. But I will continue.

Also not true. I’m not 100% sure but I believe they have half their maximum health when in a downed state.

I think its greatest strength is the amount of chip damage it can deal, the sniper need not even go for the kill. Simply half chipping most of the enemy team is ridiculous. Even just chipping 2-3 people. Medics are often not quick enough in pub play unless there’s an Aura station around to deal with this, which makes the PDP especially useful on defense where people have to come to you.

(watsyurdeal) #15

So I’m just going to run some math by you guys real quick

The MoA, rate of fire is about 1395 ms, the PDP is about 300 ms. The MoA deals 75/150 damage, while the PDP does 45/90. So the major advantage here, DPS, in the time it would take to cycle the bolt with the MoA, you can deal 225/450 damage with the PDP.

So let’s assume you go with this strat as a Sniper, Headshot first, then bodyshot, if you can do headshots with the MoA you can sure as shit do it with this.

So, this means assuming you’re nailing at least 2/3 of your shots, you should be able to kill 3 people before having to reload. 3 of 5 people in the time it takes to kill 1 to 2 with the MoA, nevermind the fact you can’t gib, why does it matter when the Medic is already down along with two of his buddies?

The gun is hella strong, the fact that it doesn’t gib doesn’t immediately mean the MoA is better. The damage output of the PDP outclasses it, just let someone like Chicken or Linkz use it in a match…watch how devastating it will be.

(Gi.Am) #16

I should stop reading here since I know that’s hilariously not true. But I will continue.
[/quote]

Thats how the system works ADS shots always land where you aim. You can land smg shots at sniper distances (which is why they complain about aimpunch) the only things that makes it hard to land all shots at distance is that you have to compensate erratic recoil and the lack of magnification compared to a sniper.

Also not true. I’m not 100% sure but I believe they have half their maximum health when in a downed state.
[/quote]

http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/6389/why-does-it-take-so-much-damage-to-finish-someone <-- granted that was in April but no one disagreed with the statement of full hp on downed mercs. If they changed that since then I retract that statement but I’m not remembering something along this lines in the changelogs.

I think its greatest strength is the amount of chip damage it can deal, the sniper need not even go for the kill. Simply half chipping most of the enemy team is ridiculous. Even just chipping 2-3 people. Medics are often not quick enough in pub play unless there’s an Aura station around to deal with this, which makes the PDP especially useful on defense where people have to come to you.[/quote]

Once again those advantages are a problem of players not doing a good job chipping damage can be healed and a competent sawbonez that sticks with his team instead of ramboing around is quick enough.

The PDP has a DPS of roughly 150 while a MOA is at 50. The important thing here is that the MOA deals enough damage up front that it will instantly kill everyone except Thunder and Rhino. In contrast the PDP can only kill the fast classes (80/90 HP) instantly so if you face the medium range like Sawbonez, Skyhammer or even another vassili, you are facing a delay of a few milliseconds before you get a kill. A delay that gives the other end the opurtunity to make a evasive movement, induce aimpunch or get behind cover.

Linkzr and Chickenwaffles can land consistent headshots thats why they go with the MOA because they wouldn’t kill faster with the PDP.

Btw. why would you go headshot first and then bodyshot? the other way round would make more sense recoil pushes the gun upwards if you go head first and then body you have to compensate downward while body first then head the gun would move in the right direction on itself. Also bodyshot - headshot would result in a gib.

(Ghosthree3) #17

Killing enemies leaves them incapacitated, but they can be revived by a medic or helped up. To prevent this, you can finish downed enemies by damaging them more. This also grants XP according to the damage done. A quick slash or a fast attack of your melee weapon will instantly kill them.

Source: http://dirtybomb.gamepedia.com/New_Player’s_Guide
Go ahead and check the damage on gibs, you will never ever get the same amount as you do for a kill - point per damage. You get up to half. Also test it yourself and count the bullets it takes to kill a full health player compared to one that is down. I believe that any ‘overflow’ damage on the killing blow is pre-dealt to the downed body by the way, and it is not counted in the XP when you gib.

(Gi.Am) #18

ok I did just that (testing it) unfortunaly its a bit too hot here and DB crashed midplay but anyways my findings with a Dreiss Bodyshots to finish (Vassili is out of rotation) :

Sparks 3
Nader 4
Kira 4
Aura 3
Proxy 4

(obviously new free rotation is here)
Looking at those numbers it is clear that a downed Merc has full HP. If it was 50% Sparks Kira Aura and Proxy would all be finished with 2. Nader would only needed 3 aswell.

However Nader, Aura and Sparks did take 1 bullet less, than they should on full HP. Therefore I agree that overdamage gets applied to a downed body. This would also be consistent with Proxy and Kira taking 4 shots, since the overdamage of a dreiss on 4 bodyshots (to kill) would be 10. Which results in 80 HP downed and thats more then 75 (3 Dreiss bodyshots).

Melee weapons are clearly handled differently since a quick slash with any melee weapon will instantly finish everyone (even with 50%. a melee weapon wouldn’t be able to finish rhino in one go otherwise).

So, do I have to retract my statement that a unskilled (bodyshots only) player needs 6 shots to kill and finish a medium (120HP) Merc? Nope 3 shots (135 Damage) Overdamage would be 15. 2 Shots + 15 Damage would be 105 so you still need a third bullet to finish.

Several Merc will indeed take one bullet less to finish than they take to kill (still PDP Bodyshots). The 100 + 110 Mercs and Fragger to be precise.

(Ghosthree3) #19

Either you’re saying the game is lying and not awarding points correctly or you tested incorrectly. I’d like to point out at this time that if you’ve ever insta-gibbed a Rhino with a grenade you’ll know it gives +100 finish points. He has 200 health. 1 point per damage dealt as according to the wiki and well, the rest of the game.

I also really do not think that any time I have had to gib a Rhino with a gun I’ve had to deal 200 damage. That’d be ridiculous.

(Gi.Am) #20

That sentence in the wiki only states that more damage means more XP it doesn’t say how much XP you get per damage. I did observe that you get XP values for finishing that represent at maximum 50% of the full HP. This could very well mean that you only get 0.5 XP per 1 damage. That is kinda hard to test. But it would make sense that finishing yields less XP than actualy killing someone, considering that hitting an non moving non shooting target is kinda easier isn’t it.

I stand by my shot counts that were consistent over serveral finish atempts (and with it that a dwoned Merc has full HP - Overdamage). Could I be doing something wrong? Maybe I don’t know what it could be.

But I wouldn’t mind independed testing at all. So grab a gun kill people, aim for the body and count your shots. I’d recommend the Dreiss since counting shots is easy on that gun. but if you have a method to discern single shots on an empire (video maybe?) feel free to use that.