Over and out – Feedback about the Alpha/Beta and how feedback was handled

(k0k0nat) #1

It has been a while since my last post in this forum and my last feedback. Most of the people that I have in my FL in steam did not touch DB for month, so did I. Even people like potty seem to quit the game.
I only can refer to a lot of forum posts why the game has completely become unenjoyably for me and others. Now it is time to provide a last feedback, I still have some love for SD.

How feedback was handled:

Was it? I mean technical bugs that have been reported really have been fixed.
But what about the gameplay? Fun parts of map have been removed or replaced, mercs have been misbalanced. In the beginning of the alpha, we did not have so many mercs, but it felt fair.
Every merc could kill every other merc in the early days.
Now u decided to make Fragger the hero of DB. People have been crying over and over about Fragger and he still is the champion. We wanted grenades back, because it has been part of ET and RTCW forever. As u saw how gameplay is going, u suddenly took them from us.
Now Fragger is the only one who can play around with powerful nades. Thanks for that. Nader has been nerved; Fletcher still has his stupid proxy-nades.
Then we had bugs with main weapons, especially rifles. Sawbonez was nerved to the ground in some patches, while Fragger and Thunder were buffed. People were crying about shotguns. U took the deagle from Sawbonez. You decided how the merc roles are going to be played in this game.
A lot of times answers were just like “hur dur. Look at the statistics we just provided. We have to be right. This gun has to be nerved, shotguns are not played enough.” Regardless of the merc-situation.
Tank, Healer, Supporter. Basically. A medic as strong as in ET? Never!
Now Fragger/Thunder/Fatass Minigun has to take the lead, while being healed by medics, while supporters and “rogues” try to get picks.
But guess what. This is no MMOBA or MMO. It feels like u just took the DOTA/WOW-baking dish, stuffed everything from DB into it and the “this is a team- and merc based shooter”-game was ready to eat.

Youtubers, “Pros” and other “V.I.P.’s”

– No, this is not a part where I rage against Pixel and others. It simply annoyed me how “suddenly” the devs felt like they have to hear feedback that has already been provided over month now and needs to be refreshed by eFmous ppl.
While Pixel and other shoutcasters provided very good feedback for the spectating mode and such – The CORE of every feedback was the SAME, for YEARS now. How many forum posts did the community open and HOW MANY times did we discuss the same things over and over and over.
No it is not about mocking others, it is how u handled the community. You were reading feedback from the “oldschool”-fans ever since the alpha started, then suddenly some guys came in and provided the same feedback which at least has been answered by some devs. ( But never really was considered to be good enough or “right” as it seems.)
I really would like to know why all the feedback went to hell and why feedback from “V.I.P”’ seemed so important to you. Rex for example was here from the beginning and during the time I played for the ducks and we decided as a team that this game is going nowhere, none of his feedback has been heard. When he told us he could not speak about “new futures” because of his NDA, we just could not stop laughing because we already knew what was coming or how you are going to mess up maps again.

Maps:

The very best example is the first objective at underground. How can u put a C4 objective into a box? I mean… It is a box, how can fights be enjoyed when the main goal is to jump into a meat grinder? Side obj. are only waste a lot of time and provide additional entries for the defenders. Beating the time in SW will never happen trough the sides.
Since the alpha we were begging you for new maps – There once was a fun training/aim map, where did it go? Instead you decided to take some tape and glue and put it on the old 3 maps over and over.
Your answer: “Look at our statistics, the red marker shows us that the map is fine. We just have to cut out little bit out over here and glue it over there.”
You guys never seemed to really care about the opinions of the current maps or spawn selection and other CORE elements that we wished for. Then the fun part of WC, the document run was cut off and instead we now have to blow up ourselves with some energy-core bull**** while we jump around a stone. WHY DO we even have to? There is a ing ramp next to the elevator. The tank could just drive through the whole map. End of story. This is bull.
Execution:
I played this mode for 10mins. I’m not interested in this, so as many others here in this forum. A lot of other generic shooters offer S&D.
You promised us ET-like feeling in the first place, then suddenly announced Execution even when SW/Obj still was broken. I can remember that a lot of people were totally pissed.

The deal with Nexon:

I don’t know why, but the idea of migrating the alpha/beta to the Nexon Launcher was so terrible. How could u even?
A lot of people were skeptical about the Nexon Deal and know we all know why. It feels like Nexon is forcing you to generated revenue with overpriced mercpacks and some shinny cases.
It feels like there is no real idea behind that system and it is just frustrating the get the same ****ty cards over and over. Instead of collecting points or just having single skins like in CS:GO, people need to hope for the best merc load out. No, this is not pay to win but really provides the feeling of it. The idea of buying some special cases that increase the chance of a good pick freaks me out.
Same chances for everyone. Not for people that spend more money or play 24/7.
Anyway, I got a cobalt Redeye now, yeppie.

Announcing old stuff as new stuff

So the open beta started. Yes. And I do understand that a lot of new players were coming in.
And now I have to BUY old mercs for a lot of in-game points?! Really? Essential mercs need to be unlocked?
You really should have followed DOTA2 and go with cosmetics only. The small merc variation in the beginning of the game kills all fun.
When Bushwhacker and Nader came out, I was like “neat.” Then I saw the prices and instantly hit ALT+F4.

TL DR

I quit playing, but I am grateful that I have been part of it since the Alpha. My money was well spent for the amount of time I had fun with this game. I Played A LOT of hours, even more than CS:GO or Dayz.
BUT: I am pissed how the feedback of the community did not make it into the game and how different stages of the alpha/beta were handled. I still don’t get how this game is “open beta” now. My/our feedback did not provide the results I was hoping for, especially for the competitive scene.
The game is no oldschool-shooter that can please ET-Fans, nor is it a modern F2P teambased shooter for fresh players. Most of the feedback did not make it into the game. Maps are terrible, so is the hypocritical merc/team balance. Competitive gameplay is going nowhere. Even with the best shoutcasters, it is impossible to convince viewers that this type of objectives and gameplay makes sense. The monetization of cards/loudouts/skins is truly horrible and also feels rushed and forced by Nexon.

(BomBaKlaK) #2

So true … especially for the "Youtubers, “Pros” / other “V.I.P.’s” " and Maps section.

(ailmanki) #3

its over 9000

(Szakalot) #4

Its a good post but I don’t agree with everything.

Imo merc balance is actually pretty tight, yeah fragger is the strongest since the darwin update (about a year ago), and has never conceded the spot; but one merc has to be the strongest, right? Pretty much every 2nd patch we see an adjustment to this merc, so I’m not that worried. Overall balance doesn’t bother me, nothing stands out too insanely, and balancing can be easily done at any stage of the game, not a big priority.

This is definitely not a MOBA FPS, but once we hit 20 mercs and some draft system is introduced, I think 5v5 comp could get interesting. While pure skill will always win, there are some very subtle advantages/disadvantage specific lineups have, and people will learn to exploit them.

Yeah maps have some really sucky moments,but the gun/merc play is so satisfying I don’t care as much. We’ll get better maps, Dome is definitely a step in the right direction.

Overall I get the impression that people are simply disappointed with the pace of development. Which I can understand. It is rarely that SD disagrees, its just that there is A LOT of BASIC functionality missing that has to be fixed first.

And execution is definitely its own thing, if only we had a minlvl10 server so people would see it for what it is (big prolonged teamfights). Playing with good players in balanced teams was the closest I got to ET feel since I started playing.

(potty200) #5

I didn’t quit I was just let down on way too many occasions to want to run cups, leagues or do other work other than playing.

But yeah, I say what I think but felt like a lot of it was overlooked until the masses arrived!

(Remedie) #6

Moslty agree but is there any response or comment expected?

I dont think things will change since the release is here even if its called beta.

hu? i dont have the founder tag…

(Mustang) #7

http://forums.warchest.com/profile.php?do=editusergroups

(tokamak) #8

I started playing again. I’ve been begging for the game to be more like QW and what I got was a game that is more like QW. Still has some length to go but I’m enjoying the gunplay way more than I used to.

I just want more toys to play with now. Rainbow Six Siege shows brilliantly how a shooter can feel like an actual game of chess by having tons of interesting gear that puts gameplay over realism.

(k0k0nat) #9

[QUOTE=tokamak;542248]I started playing again. I’ve been begging for the game to be more like QW and what I got was a game that is more like QW. Still has some length to go but I’m enjoying the gunplay way more than I used to.

I just want more toys to play with now. Rainbow Six Siege shows brilliantly how a shooter can feel like an actual game of chess by having tons of interesting gear that puts gameplay over realism.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I can not really feel QW in this game.
+
I played Rainbow Six at gamescom and a few rounds in the beta, it is a nice game for 1-2 rounds but nothing too exiting.
The graphics are terrible btw, normally I would not care but with this amount of toys and stuff, the GFX and effects are not looking polished.

For me, I just realized that there are two options for “oldschool” players now:

a) Deal with the “new” mechanics
b) quit playing, stop whining

I will go with option b. I think there will be a lot more exiting MMOBA games or game with MMOBA elements, like Battleborn, but will not get a new RTCW/BF1942/COD1 again…

(Loki.) #10

Ah RTCW MP…

Had one of the all-time, greatest maps… BEACH…

Such a simple design : breach the walls/defend, storm the compound/defend, steal the docs/defend, transmit the docs/prevent.

How basic can it be, yet so addicting… I cant even count the hrs i spent on that map… along with many other RTCW maps…

DB maps, not a single one (for me of course) comes close to Beach in terms of enjoyment or desire to play repeatedly for hours…

:frowning:

(warbie) #11

[QUOTE=Loki.;542375]Such a simple design : breach the walls/defend, storm the compound/defend, steal the docs/defend, transmit the docs/prevent.

How basic can it be, yet so addicting… I cant even count the hrs i spent on that map… along with many other RTCW maps…[/QUOTE]

Just jumping into to say I hear that!

//engage rant

This isn’t a case of nostalgia speaking btw - look up some old Beach scrims and it’s still obvious how everything worked. It just all worked. Class synergy, spawning, map layout, balance - each element encouraged teamplay and the results clicked into place in a way not seen in other fps. And i’ve thought about this quite a lot over the years as pc fps - particularly team and objective based - are my thing. Games today simply don’t encourage teamplay in an emergent way. They try and shoehorn it in after the fact. ‘Oh ****, nobodies reviving each other. We better add massive ui overlays so they know where to go. And maybe some incentive. XP for revives. Perhaps some little in-game challenges for further encouragement.’ Job done. Pat on the back. Except that doesn’t work because it’s not addressing the underlying issue of why people weren’t reviving in the first place. Teamplay then becomes a bolt on. An aside. You can see it in every other fps that attempts teambased combat. Particularly DB - the few similarities it has with RTCW make it’s failing all the more obvious. But hey, it’s too late for that now and moaning won’t help matters. It’s just a shame. I do hope the whole moba meets fps thing works out ok instead because it’s going to have to.

(KeMoN) #12

Now, I feel like you are being a little to harsh on DirtyBomb.
I agree that the overall feeling in RTCW and W:ET was unique and the maps were playable for thousands of hours without growing tired of them. However the demand on the market changes, people expect more and Dirtybomb does a great job of adressing that.
RTCW had 5 classes, DirtyBomb also has 5 classes, but within those it is promoting a broad variety of different play styles with the different mercs in the classes. Granted, maps are a little on the weak side right now, but they are trying. They gave us Dome. I thought it is a great map, quite open and many routes like in W:ET, but SD got flamed and hated for it. I feel like here is the perfect spot to request community mapping again.

You claim [QUOTE=warbie;542679]Games today simply don’t encourage teamplay in an emergent way.[/quote], but for DirtyBomb I can’t agree with you (except for Execution). DirtyBomb, as well as W:ET is F2P and those games attract more of the useless players than other games, however in RTCW and W:ET I personally had far more problems with rambo-medics than in DirtyBomb. If a medic is in my vicinity and can revive me without collateral damage then in my experience I get revived. You can’t say that for W:ET where rambo-medics just trickjumped right through you.

[QUOTE=warbie;542679]'Oh ****, nobodies reviving each other. We better add massive ui overlays so they know where to go.[/quote] You raise a great point here and I thought about openinig a thread about that some weeks ago, however unfortunately you have it completely wrong.
This is the RTCW / W:ET overlay. In DirtyBomb you have a tiny white icon that is hardly visible. I actually wish we had something as visible as in your go-to reference RTCW. It would help a great deal. Here you can see the teammate display in RTCW / W:ET and in a split second you know whether that teammate needs a healthpack or not. In DirtyBomb a tiny blue line with a slighty thicker blue line is supposed to tell me whether I need to throw a pack or not. I don’t have to time to look that closely so I just throw my medpacks around whenever they are ready and rely on my teammates to pick them up when they need it.
I would like to actually have those “massive ui overlays” that you claim are already there.

You also claim that DirtyBomb came up with not-thought-through incentives to compete with the lack of teamplay like “XP for revives”, but I hope you realize that your go-to reference RTCW basically invented that.

Of course there are balancing issues within the mercs, but it is under development. RTCW and W:ET both have their 5 classes and that’s it. Naturally that keeps the issues to a minimum, but it also keeps the options for individual gamestyles to a minimum! I’m the last one to complain about the aim to add a little complexity and diversity to a game.

I just felt that this game gets a little too much sh/t, but admitteldy I also have my fair share in this.
Cheers

(Szakalot) #13

[QUOTE=warbie;542679]Just jumping into to say I hear that!

//engage rant

This isn’t a case of nostalgia speaking btw - look up some old Beach scrims and it’s still obvious how everything worked. It just all worked. Class synergy, spawning, map layout, balance - each element encouraged teamplay and the results clicked into place in a way not seen in other fps. And i’ve thought about this quite a lot over the years as pc fps - particularly team and objective based - are my thing. Games today simply don’t encourage teamplay in an emergent way. They try and shoehorn it in after the fact. ‘Oh ****, nobodies reviving each other. We better add massive ui overlays so they know where to go. And maybe some incentive. XP for revives. Perhaps some little in-game challenges for further encouragement.’ Job done. Pat on the back. Except that doesn’t work because it’s not addressing the underlying issue of why people weren’t reviving in the first place. Teamplay then becomes a bolt on. An aside. You can see it in every other fps that attempts teambased combat. Particularly DB - the few similarities it has with RTCW make it’s failing all the more obvious. But hey, it’s too late for that now and moaning won’t help matters. It’s just a shame. I do hope the whole moba meets fps thing works out ok instead because it’s going to have to.[/QUOTE]

play on minlvl10 stopwatch servers. People are quite the teamplayers there (usually).

All in all its the a bit of nostalgia talking. there were plenty clueless no-teamply players in RTCW/WET/QW as well.

(sfHitman) #14

hmm why not go back to rtcw ?? :slight_smile:
played it from beta and its for sure the best teamplayshooter of al time. I had a lot of hope for Dirty Bomb (the same for Brink…) and at this Point i have to say. I have a lot of Fun atm wit DB. Sure there are a loot of Noobs outside who dont know what is Teamplay and there are a lot of Cheaters who get a big …enis if they kill everyone with 1 Shot. But aslong as i can play with my friends on a Private Server it is no Big Deal. I miss of course the old Times where we had our League Games vs. other cool Guys and had a lot of Fun. I still belive DB could make the old Times come back. But there is a long way to the top and SD should Focus on Gamefun and Balancing instead of Create “new” Chars to get more Money. In Comp. games its hard to get good games. Either you get some noobs on the other side or you get Raped by them… But i think this is more a Problem of the lack of Players who play comp. Games.

So i wont give up belive in DB…

(fubar) #15

[QUOTE=sfHitman;542685]hmm why not go back to rtcw ?? :slight_smile:
played it from beta and its for sure the best teamplayshooter of al time. I had a lot of hope for Dirty Bomb (the same for Brink…) and at this Point i have to say. I have a lot of Fun atm wit DB. Sure there are a loot of Noobs outside who dont know what is Teamplay and there are a lot of Cheaters who get a big …enis if they kill everyone with 1 Shot. But aslong as i can play with my friends on a Private Server it is no Big Deal. I miss of course the old Times where we had our League Games vs. other cool Guys and had a lot of Fun. I still belive DB could make the old Times come back. But there is a long way to the top and SD should Focus on Gamefun and Balancing instead of Create “new” Chars to get more Money. In Comp. games its hard to get good games. Either you get some noobs on the other side or you get Raped by them… But i think this is more a Problem of the lack of Players who play comp. Games.

So i wont give up belive in DB…[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I have to ask… but what’s the weird ass capitalization? I thought I figured out a pattern but then you threw me right off again, it’s bugging the hell out of me. :frowning:

(Glottis-3D) #16

yeah, that capitalisation is intriguing…to say at least

(warbie) #17

I agree with much of what you’re saying if we’re talking about ET, but I was talking about RTCW exclusively. Pretty much everything ET introduced made for a worse game. Infact, rambo medics didn’t exist before ET as it was ammo stations and ammo drops on kills that allowed them to thrive. Maps were also more open and less objective focussed resulting in a wider playing field and more occasions of people finding themselves alone or in small groups. It’s no coincidence that pretty much all competitive ET maps were user made. Nor is it a coincidence they’re similar to RTCW maps. To someone new to both games they look very similar, but these changes made for a noticeable reduction in teamplay. QW was even worse. And while there was some ui overlay in RTCW, it tended to be minimal and tbh wasn’t needed at all. Now compared to when I last played DB (things may have changed in recent months so forgive me if this isn’t the case today) it wasn’t unusual to have your entire screen flooded with floating icons. And this was needed because the maps were rabbit warren messes with no clear front lines and screwed up spawning. People were literally all over the bloody place with no chance of emergent teamplay regardless of how well class abilities complimented each other. That was until the final cluster **** choke point which was just human blender time and all bets were off. I know I’m sounding harsh here but after all these years it’s just frustrating. People wax lyrical about the original Beach demo for a reason. It was groundbreaking. There had literally been nothing like it. Overnight CS suddenly looked like a teambased fps with training wheels. And RTCW gave us map after map with the same great teamplay. Then ET came along and diluted the formula. Not by much, but enough for cracks to begin forming and it was down hill from there with each subsequent game.

There is no doubt in my mind that if the teamplay from the original RTCW could be captured and brought up-to-date with today’s tech it would be a hit. Especially if it was free to play. Bolt on all the moba stuff you like, but keep the teamplay because that’s the unique selling point that isn’t available anywhere else. And that’s not an exaggeration - no other fps have this.

(FireWorks) #18

In some languages like german, you write every noun in capital letters. This seems to be the case here for the biggest part.

(light_sh4v0r) #19

That’s what I thought, and then this line came:

Either you get some noobs on the other side or you get Raped by them

(Runeforce) #20

Looks like the intelligent spellchecking on the Ipad set to a non-english language. It can be very insistent on ****ing it up.