Next Movement Test Patch

(INF3RN0) #101

I pick my positioning well regardless of the dancing maneuvers I might be able to make. I never go running into a fight and bank my chances on winning because of movement. I think it’s conveniently ignored how the importance of positioning is not at all lost when there is fast movement… it still exists and it is extremely vital to being successful. Positioning becomes all the more important when you have someone in a position with great cover or on high ground moving very fast vs a person in the open.

(tokamak) #102

I’m not saying it’s not important, but it will inevitably less important. That’s why you want the dancing and dodging, to make where you’re standing matter less while making your aiming and manoeuvring matter more.

(H0RSE) #103

I think the point being made here, is that with too much of am emphasis made on movement, it might not matter if a player picks his positioning well or not.

(tokamak) #104

The dancing sort of stuff is more for when both players clash into each other, then you can do that cute stand-off dance or dance your way around the corner because your friends don’t dance and if they don’t dance then they’re no friends of mine. However if one player gets to drop on someone out in the open then that guy should just be screwed.

(Apoc) #105

[QUOTE=H0RSE;416163]And here is where opinions differ and the balancing act begins. What constitutes “skill” in a game, or more specifically, in a firefight? perhaps during the actual firefight, movement and aim are the 2 most important factors, but prior or afterwards? Should twitch skills really be the deciding factor? Perhaps in an arena type shooter, yes, but in a more team-based objective style shooter? I guess it just comes down to what type of design SD wants this game to follow.
[/QUOTE]

I dislike this kind of talking, as if, people who are good tacticians or good team players, cant also have good aim/movement. People argue wether someone with good aim and movement should be able to beat a good tactician as if they are uncombinable skills.
Most players have a mixture of both, and those lacking in aim cannot be successful in a gunfight, because even if you used the most tactical positioning possible, you still have to hit your target. Luckily, people can aim, even if only at a low level. The deciding factor in fights is the synergy of skills. Not one thing.

The point in question, movement, is lacking in DB. Specifically in gunfights. The main and only tactic the movement system will really allow is slow straffing, with the occassional crouch (although you get punished by being slowed too much to use it). This is where the movement system isnt “unique” its insufficient. When a game forces only one or two possibilities when in a fight (movement wise), then it requires improvement. Even cod allows you to strafe, crouch, jump, prone, jump-crouch, circlestrafe etc.
DB has issues with how slow and cumbersome in fight movement is. Out of fights its fine, but in fights its not. Jumping has no place, too clunky to use and cant be used effectively with a strafe. Proning isnt in the game. Crouching slows you too much as it isnt an instant transition like in etqw. Straffing is too slow to be done effectively. That is the issue.

(tokamak) #106

They’re not uncombinable on the level of the player, but on the level of the game the importance of these two things are in direct conflict. You can’t increase the importance of one without decreasing the other.

The point in question, movement, is lacking in DB. Specifically in gunfights. The main and only tactic the movement system with really allow is slow straffing, with the occassional crouch (although you get punished by being slowed too much to use it).

And I am saying that the movement is already overdone. The speed of the game is currently at such a level that there’s no reason not to keep on moving. There’s no point in holding quarters because standing still makes you a sitting duck to players flying through the map.

Position is currently meaningless in DB. And that is just toxic to objective based gameplay.

And this is fun if this jittery dance gunplay is all that matters to you and objectives are just an after-thought, something that gets decided by the victor of these little DDR shootouts. But I want to see people have the objective as their main priority and be fighting over the space of the maps rather than trying to score kills as often as possible.

And now I’m also closer to understanding why people want deaths to be less painful. It’s that jittery dance that is apparently so appealing that you want to see it happening as often as possible in the game, and staying alive whenever you don’t need to only gets in the way of getting to perform this strange yet intimate ritual as often as possible in each match.

Just let me tell you that this type of gameplay is a niche within a niche and is pretty obscure for most gamers. There’s masses of people who hate this sort of **** and even the people who humour it, like me, will grow bored of it especially when it gets in the way of more depth in the combat.

(INF3RN0) #107

That is not true at all. Positioning becomes more important when speed is higher. That way you maximize your advantage by further increasing the difficulty to track you. I don’t understand how you can argue that. Crossfire positioning also derives from maximizing a teams ability to cooperatively kill a fast moving target. Just because it’s faster paced does not mean it’s remotely like what you imply.

(H0RSE) #108

[QUOTE=Apoc;416171]I dislike this kind of talking, as if, people who are good tacticians or good team players, cant also have good aim/movement. People argue wether someone with good aim and movement should be able to beat a good tactician as if they are uncombinable skills.
Most players have a mixture of both, and those lacking in aim cannot be successful in a gunfight, because even if you used the most tactical positioning possible, you still have to hit your target. Luckily, people can aim, even if only at a low level. The deciding factor in fights is the synergy of skills. Not one thing.[/quote]
The point is, too high of emphasis on one element, takes away from the other. In a “balanced” game, scenarios where tactics should indicate the victor, they likely would, and the same for movement. As mentioned, in during a gunfight, movement and aim are key, but events leading up to or after after the fight, not necessarily. The point that most players have a combination of both skills, is irrelevant here, since it matters less if one skillset takes precedence over the other. Movement shouldn’t be treated as a “fallback” skillset, that can be used to get out of any sticky situation.

The point in question, movement, is lacking in DB. Specifically in gunfights. The main and only tactic the movement system will really allow is slow straffing, with the occassional crouch (although you get punished by being slowed too much to use it). This is where the movement system isnt “unique” its insufficient. When a game forces only one or two possibilities when in a fight (movement wise), then it requires improvement. Even cod allows you to strafe, crouch, jump, prone, jump-crouch, circlestrafe etc.
DB has issues with how slow and cumbersome in fight movement is. Out of fights its fine, but in fights its not. Jumping has no place, too clunky to use and cant be used effectively with a strafe. Proning isnt in the game. Crouching slows you too much as it isnt an instant transition like in etqw. Straffing is too slow to be done effectively. That is the issue.

I think these types of observations should be left till the playerbase is larger and more diverse.

I see it as the opposite. If speed is slow (meaning a getaway is harder) than positioning (to me at least) would be more important - Kind of like playing Heavy in TF2 relies heavily on being aware of your surroundings. Besides, I don’t think simply speed is what Tok has a problem with - it’s the speed mixed with the amount of mobility allowed simultaneously, and how currently they are at a level that deters from other factors.

(tokamak) #109

I don’t think SD can afford to reserve that for a larger playerbase.

If you’re easier to track and have less means to avoid incoming fire, then your position suddenly becomes all the more important. It’s just that simple.

(Apoc) #110

[QUOTE=tokamak;416172]
And I am saying that the movement is already overdone. The speed of the game is currently at such a level that there’s no reason not to keep on moving. There’s no point in holding quarters because standing still makes you a sitting duck to players flying through the map.

Position is currently meaningless in DB. And that is just toxic to objective based gameplay.

And this is fun if this jittery dance gunplay is all that matters to you and objectives are just an after-thought, something that gets decided by the victor of these little DDR shootouts. But I want to see people have the objective as their main priority and be fighting over the space of the maps rather than trying to score kills as often as possible.[/QUOTE]

Sitting still will always be less efficient than moving, unless your out of the enemies sights. My argument was that the strafe dance shouldnt be the only method of movement in a fight. The fact that it is, is the problem.
The objective is the main priority, but you cant clear an objective by sitting in a clever position, people need to die, then you can sit in your clever position and help the obj get done.

(tokamak) #111

My argument was that the strafe dance shouldnt be the only method of movement in a fight. The fact that it is, is the problem.

I’m not really following this is. What exactly do you think should be changed?

(Apoc) #112

Its not. Being able to get the first couple of bullets in on target before the enemy can shoot back or react(through positioning) should be reward enough, positioning shouldnt be the trump card that insta wins battles, it should give you the initial advantage, at which point you must use your other skill sets to capitalise on that advantage.

Basically in an ideal scenario, someone with good positioning, good aim, and good movement will kill someone with poor positioning, good aim, good movement, but it wouldnt be an easy fight, as the positioning is the only difference, but that early advantage will be enough to win the fight.

What you sound like you want is someone with great positioning, average aim, average movement, to beat someone with average positioning, great aim, great movement. But thats not going to happen. Positioning gives you the initial edge, but if someone is better than you in more than one area, by a decent margin, they should be able to overcome it.

(H0RSE) #113

[QUOTE=Apoc;416182]
What you sound like you want is someone with great positioning, average aim, average movement, to beat someone with average positioning, great aim, great movement. But thats not going to happen. Positioning gives you the initial edge, but if someone is better than you in more than one area, by a decent margin, they should be able to overcome it.[/QUOTE]

What I would like to see a game where both skillsets are equally important, but depending on the scenario, one can be more than other.

(Apoc) #114

From a movement perspective purely, i think diversity in movement styles shouldnt be punsished, and creative movement should be possible. I.e someone should be able to throw in a crouch without being slowed down to a silly extent, and i think a jump should be a possible alternative, i feel people should be able to dynamically move in a fight instead of just strafing in straight lines. Take quake, people could have fights while jumping across ledges, jumping over someones head was a valid way to make yourself harder to track, standing still in a fight was actually a supprise as gameplay was fast enough for people to predict ahead of people.
I dont want another quake, i just want an alternate to side to side strafing.

(H0RSE) #115

[QUOTE=Apoc;416185]From a movement perspective purely, i think diversity in movement styles shouldnt be punsished, and creative movement should be possible. I.e someone should be able to throw in a crouch without being slowed down to a silly extent, and i think a jump should be a possible alternative, i feel people should be able to dynamically move in a fight instead of just strafing in straight lines. Take quake, people could have fights while jumping across ledges, jumping over someones head was a valid way to make yourself harder to track, standing still in a fight was actually a supprise as gameplay was fast enough for people to predict ahead of people.
I dont want another quake, i just want an alternate to side to side strafing.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate freedom in movement, but not to extremes. I guess I’m more “traditional” when it comes to firefights - less Matrix action scenes, more Rambo.

By leaving the creativity facet in movement too high, you create a skill ceiling that cannot/will not be met by all players. By creating limitations, you create an environment that doesn’t alienate players as much, yet can still have mechanics that can be mastered.

(Apoc) #116

I know its etqw, and im not saying i want a copy, but just watch that vid and see how many different aproaches to a fight, movement wise there are. Sometimes strafing, sometimes dramatic jumps, sometimes cruching still for accuracy, most of the time combining positioning with good aim and good movement. Thats what i want from DB, not an etqw clone, just the ability for movement to play an equal part.

//youtu.be/8OIatgw0wCI

(INF3RN0) #117

[QUOTE=tokamak;416178]I don’t think SD can afford to reserve that for a larger playerbase.

If you’re easier to track and have less means to avoid incoming fire, then your position suddenly becomes all the more important. It’s just that simple.[/QUOTE]

Again your being very selfish here. All that changes is lowering the aim requirement. I would love a detailed example of just exactly how the situation your describing suddenly becomes more complex with slow movement. I’m not sure if you have ever watched any competitive ET/ETQW matches, but the impact of tactical positioning is so obviously important to the outcome of a game that even you would notice it’s there.

(INF3RN0) #118

ETQW was very different in movement than ET in terms of vertical movement imo, which was a very good feature I felt. I would love to have the same feeling of mobility of ETQW, but I don’t exactly favor perfect accuracy while jumping. I think that it should be used more as an evasive technique if anything. Re-watching this video however jogged my memory as to why I consider DB too slow and gun fights too fast.

(Bananas) #119

[QUOTE=Apoc;416191]I know its etqw, and im not saying i want a copy, but just watch that vid and see how many different aproaches to a fight, movement wise there are. Sometimes strafing, sometimes dramatic jumps, sometimes cruching still for accuracy, most of the time combining positioning with good aim and good movement. Thats what i want from DB, not an etqw clone, just the ability for movement to play an equal part.
youtube link removed[/QUOTE]This is one of the major things Dirty Bomb is lacking for me. In ETQW players had their own style of how they fought and moved. You could tell that you were fighting a certain player just by how they moved sometimes. The movement was varied enough that every fight felt different.

The firefights were long enough that you felt like you actually just bested the player you killed. In DB, a lot of times I kill the player before they even shoot back or just in an extremely short time.

I don’t want the game to be a ETQW clone, but surely most people will agree that the movement in ETQW was just more fun than DB. You had freedom to move how you wanted and the ability to choose what you thought was appropriate for the situation.

(Valdez) #120

I never played etqw, but judging by the videos it seems fast paced. Dirty bomb is way slower. Can we just get a happy medium here? I think right now the movement is just way too restrictive. I am not asking for air control or increasing the movement speed, but can you at least allow us to sprint/strafe/move backwards while firing?? I do not think this will alienate any of the potential target audience. I think this would also satisfy the rtcw/et/etqw players. Proof that you can have some more advanced movement than DB currently has and be successful would be team fortress 2.