Nader's spam.

(Glottis-3D) #21

no. you describe total IMBA it would be not ‘wrong’ kind of annoying. it would be unplayable.
the right kind on annoying is yet to be achieved by tweaking rof/range/dmg/cooldown/number of nades. and that is what this thread about. at least i hope it will help.

(tokamak) #22

Currently she’s able to spent all her nades in order to halt an entire team for one brief moment. That’s the type of thing she should always be capable of doing.

Now I’m fine with any implementations that increase the cost of doing that. Like letting the cooldown on grenades accumulate with ever nade fired (and reset when the launcher is fully filled again). That way Nader has to keep a close eye on the dosage of the grenades and only throw them all in emergencies.

(xdc) #23

I know this isn’t TF2, but the games are so similar I minus well compare.

Demo man from TF2 is way more versatile than Nader is. The ability to nade-jump off the sticky grenades to get height or speed or both makes it one the best classes in the game.

This game only has wall jumping to compare to it, which doesn’t even compare. Such versatility in extraction would be useless because the maps have no vertical height (dome is the only exception, but it is minor)

The nade spamming makes sense for Nader because that’s all it has. In terms of classes though, TF2, even though I don’t like the whole game (sniper only for dem headshots skills), the classes abilities (not just cooldowns) are more impressive than extraction, allowing for more extraordinary gameplay, where you could make a crappy map in 15 minutes and still have fun on it.

(Glottis-3D) #24

[QUOTE=xdc;511077]I know this isn’t TF2, but the games are so similar I minus well compare.

Demo man from TF2 is way more versatile than Nader is. The ability to nade-jump off the sticky grenades to get height or speed or both makes it one the best classes in the game.

This game only has wall jumping to compare to it, which doesn’t even compare. Such versatility in extraction would be useless because the maps have no vertical height (dome is the only exception, but it is minor)

The nade spamming makes sense for Nader because that’s all it has. In terms of classes though, TF2, even though I don’t like the whole game (sniper only for dem headshots skills), the classes abilities (not just cooldowns) are more impressive than extraction, allowing for more extraordinary gameplay, where you could make a crappy map in 15 minutes and still have fun on it.[/QUOTE]

this kinda led me in thought to make nader’s second ability - sticky nades with much longer time to explode, and they all shoot with 0.5 sec delay. so that Nader can do an ‘explosion line’.

(Sun_Sheng) #25

Yeah, I think there’s a degree of that, but at the same time, it’s much the same with the current way. You fire one “holy rifle-nade of Antioch” and pick up a lotto kill because of the increased damage and splash radius, or you fire one Nader style nade, miss but get a hit marker, and then just spam 5 more in the hope of picking up the kill. Both have much the same end result. Either way, for me, the hope is that it then draws in your medics to get the revives going and the teamplay and the enjoyment from relying on each other. I could be wrong, I hold my hands up on that, but for me the enjoyment comes from that one shot kill and instant dramatic moment, rather than a drawn out (relatively speaking) 5 or 6 shots for the same end result.

One advantage it does give though, and which I currently miss, is that it gives more ‘instant power’ to Nader and makes her better able to defend a plant. Many times I’ve got a plant down in DB and known i was screwed because 2 guys would come to defuse and Nader doesn’t seem to have the power to take out both. That could be a good thing because it means there is more reliance on the team to back up your plant, but it doesn’t seem to happen currently. I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve planted and screamed for backup just to end up dead with no backup and the plant defused. At least having the power to defend my own plant at close quarters would alleviate some of that frustration and it’s that I’d like to see

(tokamak) #26

[QUOTE=xdc;511077]I know this isn’t TF2, but the games are so similar I minus well compare.

Demo man from TF2 is way more versatile than Nader is. The ability to nade-jump off the sticky grenades to get height or speed or both makes it one the best classes in the game.
[/QUOTE]

That’s what i still REALLY miss with explosions. They need to blow people back. That’s the one way to make them tactically useful without adding lethality.

Even if they hardly did any damage at all then it would still pay to have a Nader if she’d fired large blast-wave grenades. Just to really shake up a team (or make them run away from those nasty things). It would totally unhinge both attackers and defenders.

And of course, the grenades should do damage. It’s just that right now they’re not disruptive enough in other ways.

(Destroy666) #27

This. Why are these even called grenades while they can hardly hurt anyone? Slow recharge & high damage would be MUCH better for gameplay and FPS number.

(tokamak) #28

Yeah that would make her lose her area control.

So what I’m hearing is people complaining about that one merc that is excelling in something else than just killing and we suddenly have to shift her back to becoming a bodycounter again?

I think we should appreciate having these kind of mercs. I’d like to see her nades being more disruptive, and perhaps even less damaging.

(Sun_Sheng) #29

[QUOTE=tokamak;511678]Yeah that would make her lose her area control.

So what I’m hearing is people complaining about that one merc that is excelling in something else than just killing and we suddenly have to shift her back to becoming a bodycounter again?

I think we should appreciate having these kind of mercs. I’d like to see her nades being more disruptive, and perhaps even less damaging.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know your background in gaming terms but, if you haven’t played ET, what I’m suggesting is more of a throwback to the riflenades there. In that context i cant think of anyone who thought the riflenades in that game were bad at area denial. On the contrary there were many calls for them to be nerved due to the ability of one good Nader to be able to completely shut down a route 1v6.

Whilst I wouldn’t want Nader to become a one woman army, I do think that just being good at area denial is pretty much a good reason not to select her. If all you want to do all game is spam an area and feel that is useful to the team, fine. But in terms of a match or a contest I’d want a teammate who is more than a one trick pony. I want someone who can perform that one role well, but also someone who can get a plant in and defend it, someone who can be mobile enough to provide offensive support, in short someone who can perform multiple roles to some degree as well as be able to specialise in another. Nader currently does one thing to an average level and gets owned everywhere else. Even Bushwacker can hold an area better

(tokamak) #30

I see rather one-trick ponies than lone wolves. One-trick ponies stick together and match each other’s strengths and weaknesses. Lone wolves just want to pad their K/D ratio and that’s all.

The garand was great fun and caused a lot of unexpected lol-shots. It fitted W:ET but wiping out entire teams by one lucky bounce won’t do in DB.

Besides, Nader is far from a one-trick pony, it’s just not that her launcher is going to do all the work. Her rifle is decent and if played well she can finish off eveyrone wounded by her barrage. That’s why I like to see a disruptive effect on the grenades. That would create a synergy between her rifle and her nade launcher without either one of them becoming too powerful on it’s own.

Players will have to flee from a grenade or suffer a slight incap, the incap wouldn’t be bad if it wasn’t for Nader coming after you to pick you off. A disruptive effect would also justify a higher xp bonus for hitting a player (without killing the player outright). This would make Nader an incredibly powerful team asset.

Is she going to get owned in 1v1 fights? Most likely. Her grenades are easily avoidable and her rifle is at best on par with many others. However that’s exactly what creates diversity in this game. Levelling the field based on 1v1 fights puts a huge damper on how unique a merc can be. If they’re all need to stand a chance in a duel then any further strengths (on larger scaled fights) become hard to justify.

Anyway, I feel that the bigger picture often gets lost in these discussions. It’s fine to have a few mercs that are excellent at 1v1. But that should also mean their strengths starts to taper off the more players you involve into a shout-out. Likewise it’s fine to have a few mercs that really don’t do well on their own but become hugely powerful in larger fights. I feel Nader is one of those mercs and so far there really aren’t many others in this niche.

(Sun_Sheng) #31

Well, I think I or we will have to agree to disagree. To my mind she’s such a limp - wristed merc that she’s rarely, if at all, worth picking. She has potential but is so impotent she can’t defend herself effectively against an opponent and only functions from a distance, throwing grenades that do very little damage and opponents can run through her barrage and take her out with no inconvenience or delay at all.

To your mind (imo) she’s useful and can hold an area. I just don’t see it. Maybe if the devs come up with some of your suggestions such as impact radius and shock wave damage then i might start to see a use for her other than mine clearance or a distraction at best. Hopefully so. I just think the ability to defend yourself to at least 50/50 level in a 1v1 is a pre - requisite for any merc

(Glottis-3D) #32

i would go as Annoying, than Usefull.

though if enemy is annoyed, then Nader is usefull. but not in a FPS-way. and i dont like that.

(tokamak) #33

Yeah I’m not saying she’s a perfect area denialist. I’m only saying that moving more towards the W:ET garand weapon it would only make her less so.

And I’m not against a garand-type of merc. But the role for that merc would be simply damage/killing and not area denial.

All I’m saying is that Nader currently holds a rather unique position. A position that should be pushed futher away from the mean and not closer towards.

(Glottis-3D) #34

Nader at the moment is only good in insta-killing small mercs like proxy.
But with nade-speed being as high as it is now this becomes pretty izi inho. it takes very little effort to do that.
So i am suggesting to lower the speed of nades, but that needs an increase in splash-damage, which in turn needs lowering the number of nades, at least from 6 to 5 (and a little more cooldown).
so. with these changes.

  1. Nader will still be able to deny areas. even more due to splash dmg.
  2. SHe will have more skill ceiling. closer to quake nades, which are very slow.
  3. she will be less spammy, because of less nades and more cooldown.
(Sun_Sheng) #35

[QUOTE=tokamak;511725]Yeah I’m not saying she’s a perfect area denialist. I’m only saying that moving more towards the W:ET garand weapon it would only make her less so.

And I’m not against a garand-type of merc. But the role for that merc would be simply damage/killing and not area denial.

All I’m saying is that Nader currently holds a rather unique position. A position that should be pushed futher away from the mean and not closer towards.[/QUOTE]

Ok, bear with me on this one as I’m using my phone and useless at typing with it but…

i was just in the bath recreating the battle of midway with 2 rubber ducks and a bar of soap when I had a thought. It’s getting into semantics a little but for the sake of discussion, part of my problem is that I see grenades as basically being something that kill people rather well. That being the case, how about changing her name to something like Miner , and instead of firing nades she fires semi - permanent mines. Mines should still be an instant kill in my mind, so instead of them being traditional mines, they could be time displacement mines. That way she could lay down a minefield that remained active for say 2 minutes, at that point they would vanish. The effect would be to do 25% hp damage, but also slow movement speed for anyone in the blast radius to 50% That would fulfil the role of area denial by making an attacking or defending team highly vulnerable. It would also retain her very unique role.

Time displacement could of course be swapped out for another function ie shock wave, but essentially the thought is to change her from nades which I see as being a damage weapon, to something more based around a function or use.

Edit:
Actually the more I think about this, the more I like it. The slowing down and semi - permanent aspects are something that could be really interesting on doc run type maps where the enemy are getting away, only for a nicely aimed mine to suddenly have them running through treacle whilst the defence is respawning and getting closer to a save. Alternatively it could slow an attack down or block a defender from stopping an attack succeeding. The only danger would come from spamming objectives to stop attacks too much, although that could be negated by having the mines destructible, the same as other mine types

(tokamak) #36

Sounds like a great new merc entirely. Maybe the mines could be dropped from the air. And if you feel particularly attached to deadly nades there’s always fragger.

We need more area denial in general. Area denial doesn’t mean just repelling people from a perimeter like mines would. It also means disrupting the area they already hold.

Nader works because they’re large ostentatious grenades with a rather long timer. The damage lies in getting people away from the positions they prefer to be in.