Nader's Martyrdom Proposed Rework

(Amerika) #21

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;84373”]Best fix imo

Martyrdom instead drops Nader nades when it activates, and it’ll drop however many nades you had when you went down. So if you had 1, then you drop 1 nade, you had 5 you drop 5 and so on. And if you have 0, you can’t use Martyrdom.[/quote]

Heh, something similar to this already happens due to the bug with nades. If you have nades in the air and you die they teleport back to you and all of them will go off on your body (and you can martyrdom too). It looks hilarious but it doesn’t change much. Long jumping away still keeps a person from ever being hit.

Martyrdom, outside of a few random occurrences you can’t do much about that are pretty rare, only kills unaware players. It’s pretty useless against teams of players who know how to easily avoid it so it’s basically a pub ability.

(gg2ez) #22

[quote=“toolboxRhyme;84385”]So you’re all going to keep spouting what is essentially “you’re just bad” and ignore any actual discussion on the ability and what changes could make it fun and useful? Do you have no ideas, or are you guys just skimming and acting like you’re better than everyone else? It’s pretty disrespectful.

With that out of the way, I have another idea to replace Martyrdom that might be fun.

Give her an ability that lets her drop a grenade at her feet that does reduced damage (which can stack with Fail Safe) but has much greater knockback. This lets her grenade jump or knock enemies away from an objective.

Or hell she could even have different types of grenades that her second ability cycles through to give her more utility.

My point still stands that Martyrdom is a boring ability that is only there to reward death if somebody decides to stab your face, or if they’re in the half of the room that you’re in.

EDIT: Changed the grenade drop ability idea.[/quote]

A Martyrdom rework has been discussed time and time again on the forums and the apparent conclusion is “no”. Perhaps the reason we have no ideas to improve Martyrdom lies in the fact that it doesn’t need improvement. What don’t you understand? It’s just a simple ability that allows Nader to drop a stack of Nades when she’s been downed. If want Martyrdom changed just because you’re on the receiving end, buckle up because it’s very unlikely to happen because it is a perfectly useful and balanced ability, reliable at area denial and slowing your enemy’s progress.

I’m sure you’re a fine player but seriously, Martyrdom doesn’t need rework. It’s a simple ability - it just drops a grenade.

(toolboxRhyme) #23

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;84373”]Best fix imo

Martyrdom instead drops Nader nades when it activates, and it’ll drop however many nades you had when you went down. So if you had 1, then you drop 1 nade, you had 5 you drop 5 and so on. And if you have 0, you can’t use Martyrdom.[/quote]

I said I liked the idea when VerticallyObese posted it earlier in the thread.

[quote=“gg2ez;84410”]A Martyrdom rework has been discussed time and time again on the forums and the apparent conclusion is “no”. Perhaps the reason we have no ideas to improve Martyrdom lies in the fact that it doesn’t need improvement. What don’t you understand? It’s just a simple ability that allows Nader to drop a stack of Nades when she’s been downed. If want Martyrdom changed just because you’re on the receiving end, buckle up because it’s very unlikely to happen because it is a perfectly useful and balanced ability, reliable at area denial and slowing your enemy’s progress.

I’m sure you’re a fine player but seriously, Martyrdom doesn’t need rework. It’s a simple ability - it just drops a grenade. [/quote]

The problem with the ability is that it actively rewards a dying player with a possibility at a free kill, maybe more. Sure it’s only really effective in pub games, I’m not arguing that. It’s also a really, really boring ability that isn’t really fun to use even in pub games.

I’d much rather see her have something more useful, but most attempts at discussion in this thread led to people claiming it was a L2P issue.

I stand by my idea of a knockback grenade. Hell, tie it in to her grenade launcher as a secondary fire that detonates on impact and give it a decent cooldown.

Now she’s got mobility and a backup area denial that doesn’t require her to explode herself.

EDIT: Also, I’m going to run into some pub matches and suicide bomb Aura stations for kicks now to try to make Martyrdom fun.

EDIT: Another edit here. If anyone has the actual numbers on range and damage of Martyrdom, I would really appreciate having that info.

(gg2ez) #24

[quote=“toolboxRhyme;84427”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;84373”]Best fix imo

Martyrdom instead drops Nader nades when it activates, and it’ll drop however many nades you had when you went down. So if you had 1, then you drop 1 nade, you had 5 you drop 5 and so on. And if you have 0, you can’t use Martyrdom.[/quote]

I said I liked the idea when VerticallyObese posted it earlier in the thread.

[quote=“gg2ez;84410”]A Martyrdom rework has been discussed time and time again on the forums and the apparent conclusion is “no”. Perhaps the reason we have no ideas to improve Martyrdom lies in the fact that it doesn’t need improvement. What don’t you understand? It’s just a simple ability that allows Nader to drop a stack of Nades when she’s been downed. If want Martyrdom changed just because you’re on the receiving end, buckle up because it’s very unlikely to happen because it is a perfectly useful and balanced ability, reliable at area denial and slowing your enemy’s progress.

I’m sure you’re a fine player but seriously, Martyrdom doesn’t need rework. It’s a simple ability - it just drops a grenade. [/quote]

The problem with the ability is that it actively rewards a dying player with a possibility at a free kill, maybe more. Sure it’s only really effective in pub games, I’m not arguing that. It’s also a really, really boring ability that isn’t really fun to use even in pub games.

I’d much rather see her have something more useful, but most attempts at discussion in this thread led to people claiming it was a L2P issue.

I stand by my idea of a knockback grenade. Hell, tie it in to her grenade launcher as a secondary fire that detonates on impact and give it a decent cooldown.

Now she’s got mobility and a backup area denial that doesn’t require her to explode herself.

EDIT: Also, I’m going to run into some pub matches and suicide bomb Aura stations for kicks now to try to make Martyrdom fun.

EDIT: Another edit here. If anyone has the actual numbers on range and damage of Martyrdom, I would really appreciate having that info.[/quote]

No, It does not reward the player for dying because as I said sacrifices her ability to be revived and earn mountains more kills. In other words, I could use Martyrdom to get 1 more kill or wait to be revived and earn 5 kills. Martyrdom is really about being all you can be, if you’re team can’t revive you in time or you’re going to be finished, only then you use Martyrdom.

(K1X455) #25

You got it wrong. You don’t get rewarded for dieing. You get rewarded for killing/incapacitating an enemy in exchange for having to wait to respawn on the next wave.

(toolboxRhyme) #26

[quote=“K1X455;84433”]You got it wrong. You don’t get rewarded for dieing. You get rewarded for killing/incapacitating an enemy in exchange for having to wait to respawn on the next wave.
[/quote]

I know, but I prefer to exaggerate it as being rewarded for dying since the skill is only able to be used while downed.

(K1X455) #27

Well there you have it. I die too from Nader’s Martyrdom but because I learned how to stay clear from a downed Nader, I’m fine with it.

Besides, I like Nader because SMG-9, Crotzni, Hochfir and of course, area denial. And BTW, Nader can also damage the EV

(CCP115) #28

The only time a martyrdom kills me is when I’m inside, and happen to get cornered. It doesn’t happen often, but when it does happen, I get pretty mad.

Apart from that, I think it’s a stupid ability.As you says rewards you for dying. Sure it’s easily avoidable, doesn’t change the fact it’s a pretty unskilled and noob friendly ability. If they changed it to not use Fragger’s nades, I would be slightly less annoyed by it.

It’s also infuriating when you play as a medic, and your friendly Naders cant hold their fingers still.

(Szakalot) #29

you people are so fixed on the ‘reward for dying’.

there is no reward, since nobody good will ever get caught.

and you can’t be revived.

its a ‘slim chance at doing some damage for not being able to get revived’. Honestly - poor trade off.

(Sussepus) #30

[quote=“CCP115;84526”]The only time a martyrdom kills me is when I’m inside, and happen to get cornered. It doesn’t happen often, but when it does happen, I get pretty mad.

Apart from that, I think it’s a stupid ability.As you says rewards you for dying. Sure it’s easily avoidable, doesn’t change the fact it’s a pretty unskilled and noob friendly ability. If they changed it to not use Fragger’s nades, I would be slightly less annoyed by it.

It’s also infuriating when you play as a medic, and your friendly Naders cant hold their fingers still.[/quote]

reward for dying? really…
if i could choose between being revived or use martyrdom guess what im choosing. lol martyrdom is basically the same as clicking K with a small chance to kill a noob trying to melee gib you. basically you trade any hope for revival with maybe 1 extra kill.
Second, the only thing that makes it “unskilled and noob friendly” are people who are exactly unskilled and noob.
Third, its also infuriating as medic when skyhammers throws an airstrike in their own head, kiras manage to run into their own laser or fragger throws a nade in the ceiling and gets it right back. yes, ive seen all three of these happen. Doenst mean those abilites should change.

tbh every person raging at martyrdom should look at themselves in the mirror and ask: why did that martyrdom kill me?
9/10 times your answer will be: because i let it happen.

(DMaster2) #31

We simply think Martyrdom is perfect the way it is and don’t need any change or rework, and if you by chance get salty because of it you should indeed learn to play against naders. Why change something that’s perfect already?

(watsyurdeal) #32

Well here’s another way to look at this

The only time it ever works is when you’re about to be gibbed with a melee weapon, which is actually a common occurence depending on who you play with.

So in reality, you are already going to be gibbed anyhow. So the argument of you lose the chance of being reivived is false since it will only kill someone who’s trying to melee you, in which you lose that chance to be revived either way.

So the question is then is that fair for her to have? To basically be able to use it everyime she dies without any real penalty?

I’d say given her type of class, yes, she is the squishiest of assault mercs but like other Assault mercs her downed state is still very big on the priority list. You always wanna gib a Rhino, Fragger, and eventually Thunder as soon as they go down since they are such heavy hitters. But with Nader, you wanna gib her soon so she can’t get back up and continue her barrage, but you wanna keep your distance to avoid being taken with her.

I’d say all in all, it’s actually fine where it is.

Nader in reality loses nothing for it, but then again, it’s incredibly situational. So it doesn’t really matter in terms of balance, so learn how to deal with it.

(toolboxRhyme) #33

We simply think Martyrdom is perfect the way it is and don’t need any change or rework, and if you by chance get salty because of it you should indeed learn to play against naders. Why change something that’s perfect already?[/quote]

I have no problem getting killed by the ability if I’m too busy fighting three people to realize I’m about to knife a downed Nader. I have a problem with the fact that it is a context action available on downed that rewards a player for killing themselves if somebody isn’t paying attention when it could be something much more useful that fits into the gameplay better.

As it stands, I mostly only use it to blow entrenched Aura positions by bouncing in at high speeds then throwing as many grenades as I can before inevitably exploding right on top of the station. It’s just not a fun ability to use, and that’s the problem.

EDIT: Also, there’s no need for more posts saying “it’s fine as it is”. I’d prefer posts with ideas that could lead to actual discussion.

(Vaasref) #34

Ok so many of you don’t like the term “rewarding”.

As a Nader you can’t be melee gibbed, because of boom. So an enemy must use either bullet or ability to gib you.

On some maps ammo crates are pretty rare and teammates are easily in a not-giving-ammo mood.
So bullets can be something you don’t want to waste.

Abilities in the other hand are time limited so you could only “waste” it for some seconds. But still, you maybe want your ability to be available when there is a real threat.

The last possibility is to not gibbing the Nader.
But if it’s a corridor, then you don’t have much choice.
And if an unwarned teammate run over her, it can be a problem.
Then by leaving her alive she can also be revived.

Killing a Nader cost more than every other merc with the same life.
Because even KO you need to waste or spend either : ammo, ability charge, security, space or time.

Phoenix which have a KO ability only need to be gibbed, and can be gibbed with melee attack which is standard only cost more than other merc if you are behind your frontline.

Even is a Nader don’t use Martydom it cost to the defendant to remove to the Nader this possibility and the possibility to get revived.
And when she use it, it cost but only maybe, because a good Nader is supposed to get a kill and because good players wait for rushing few second before the respawn wave so you don’t suffer from a big delay.

That all for the resources economic part.

Now let’s see the logic or even moral part.

If we want to, let’s say it, nerf martyrdom, why are you most using the “it only works on noob” argument or the variant : “it works well [on noobs] now why changing it ?” ?

If it only works on noobs, why is the point of keeping it ? Do you only want your noob-free-kill button ? That seem to be quite douchy or at least mean. Even more when you take into account that you get killed by a noob.

So following your logic I don’t feel that anybody should be punished for killing you. Except you maybe for being killed.

(watsyurdeal) #35

[quote=“Vaasref;84651”]

So following your logic I don’t feel that anybody should be punished for killing you. Except you maybe for being killed.[/quote]

Then by that logic Medics break the game entirely, because the only way to guarantee a kill is to gib. So get out that knife or waste about half the shots it took to kill someone to deny a revive. Or just play a class that can gib with kills like Fragger and Vasilli.

(Szakalot) #36

[quote=“Vaasref;84651”] Ok so many of you don’t like the term “rewarding”.

As a Nader you can’t be melee gibbed, because of boom. So an enemy must use either bullet or ability to gib you.

On some maps ammo crates are pretty rare and teammates are easily in a not-giving-ammo mood.
So bullets can be something you don’t want to waste.

Abilities in the other hand are time limited so you could only “waste” it for some seconds. But still, you maybe want your ability to be available when there is a real threat.

The last possibility is to not gibbing the Nader.
But if it’s a corridor, then you don’t have much choice.
And if an unwarned teammate run over her, it can be a problem.
Then by leaving her alive she can also be revived.

Killing a Nader cost more than every other merc with the same life.
Because even KO you need to waste or spend either : ammo, ability charge, security, space or time.

Phoenix which have a KO ability only need to be gibbed, and can be gibbed with melee attack which is standard only cost more than other merc if you are behind your frontline.

Even is a Nader don’t use Martydom it cost to the defendant to remove to the Nader this possibility and the possibility to get revived.
And when she use it, it cost but only maybe, because a good Nader is supposed to get a kill and because good players wait for rushing few second before the respawn wave so you don’t suffer from a big delay.

That all for the resources economic part.[/quote]

you rarely ran out of secondary ammo. Pull out any pistol, a few shoots to the downed nader’s head - they are gibbed. I’m not buying the ‘what if youre outta ammo’ argument at all.

You can also tease nader into use it, ran at her until a point she activates it. If she doesn’t you are free to run past her body, gib + long jump away to safety, if properly executed you will avoid ANY damage.

Now let’s see the logic or even moral part.

If we want to, let’s say it, nerf martyrdom, why are you most using the “it only works on noob” argument or the variant : “it works well [on noobs] now why changing it ?” ?

If it only works on noobs, why is the point of keeping it ? Do you only want your noob-free-kill button ? That seem to be quite douchy or at least mean. Even more when you take into account that you get killed by a noob.

So following your logic I don’t feel that anybody should be punished for killing you. Except you maybe for being killed.

it has some use: it will hardly ever do any harm to a good player, but the fact that nader has to be gibbed can be to someone’s disadvantage. If you’re pushing, it will slow you down, if nader is on a c4; it will slow you down as well. nader can ran in to ensure destroying a deployable, or even do some damage to the EV.

Overall, its a neat trick that nobody good is bothered by cause it hardly has any influence on the game.
I’d be like getting bothered that a direct hit with a medpack gives extra hp, or direct hit with ammopack giving a cooldown regen, and calling medpack/ammo packs OP and broken because of it.

(Vaasref) #37

If it’s the norm then it’s the norm.

By time I mean time to go around the death zone.

Also, as a light merc player (mainly Sparks), Nader rarely martyrdoms me when I try to melee gib her.
Instead in close range 1v1 if I did kill her, then almost always en up dead because i lose the last few HPs I have in the large explosion radius of martyrdom.

It’s already hard enought to no being OS by Nader’s grenades and winning the gunfight.

That my feeling, I maybe share it with other light merc players, maybe not.

Anyway, for me martydom should either have a cost (using all grenade left or CD) or being a cancelable cast adding a bit of gamble in the mix that would make martyrdom easier to accept.

Cancelable cast permit a possibility of surviving in CQB such as the Underground barrier generator room.
It will also ends up by increasing kills of daredevils. So everybody is happy, Naders can explode themselves, daredevils can dare devil, and people being assaulted by kamikaze attack can eventually survive with more possibilities than ever.

You can even add some flavor by giving a mix of cost and cast by adding more grenade, that you have in stock, (or not depending if you like the idea or not) the longer you cast, then adding a bit of gambling for the exploding Nader.

(Vaasref) #38

You missed the point.

The issue is not how to gib. But what it costs me to do it or not to do it in comparison of other mercs.

[quote=“Szakalot;84680”]
it has some use: it will hardly ever do any harm to a good player, but the fact that nader has to be gibbed can be to someone’s disadvantage. If you’re pushing, it will slow you down, if nader is on a c4; it will slow you down as well. nader can ran in to ensure destroying a deployable, or even do some damage to the EV.

Overall, its a neat trick that nobody good is bothered by cause it hardly has any influence on the game.
I’d be like getting bothered that a direct hit with a medpack gives extra hp, or direct hit with ammopack giving a cooldown regen, and calling medpack/ammo packs OP and broken because of it.[/quote]Hopefully it has a purpose, I don’t deny it nor I’m opposed to it.

As you can see the proposition of this topic is not removing it.
In fact it add even more room for skillful play : knowing that you opponent don’t have nade for now because you counted the number she fired, adding cost and then resource spending tactics to the Nader dynamic for the first proposition.

(Szakalot) #39

[quote=“Vaasref;84698”][quote=“Szakalot;84680”]
you rarely ran out of secondary ammo. Pull out any pistol, a few shoots to the downed nader’s head - they are gibbed. I’m not buying the ‘what if youre outta ammo’ argument at all.

You can also tease nader into use it, ran at her until a point she activates it. If she doesn’t you are free to run past her body, gib + long jump away to safety, if properly executed you will avoid ANY damage.
[/quote]
You missed the point.

The issue is not how to gib. But what it costs me to do it or not to do it in comparison of other mercs.
[/quote]

well, why should all mercs be the same?
some mercs have more hp. some have more DPS. some are more important to gib, etc.

the ‘it rewards death’ argument is not enough. It doesn’t reward death, as you might as well always die later. The only people that complain about martyrdom are the ones that can’t get away. If you would find it easy to get away, this would be a non-issue. Which is the case for any skilled player I know, and probably most of those that I don’t.

Hopefully it has a purpose, I don’t deny it nor I’m opposed to it.

As you can see the proposition of this topic is not removing it.
In fact it add even more room for skillful play : knowing that you opponent don’t have nade for now because you counted the number she fired, adding cost and then resource spending tactics to the Nader dynamic for the first proposition.

the proposition was discussed before and is not gonna work because of the issue of consistency.

With martyrdom, the worst thing you can do is make the radius/damage of the explosion variable. It is not feasible to predict how many nades Nader has left. Should one nade deal small damage and 5 nades do a lot more damage - well that be extremely frustrating to play against. One time you got far enough and it didn’t do a thing, another time you get just as far and get instagibed. THAT would be something to complain about.

(gg2ez) #40

Or we can just leave it at the fact the 97% of the people on this thread has given you a resounding “no” - which should be enough to get you to see that you are wrong about Martyrdom.

You’ve also said that you no longer want posts stating it’s fine as it is - but really, it’s fine as it is. @toolboxRhyme