Nader

(watsyurdeal) #21

How is it more random?

You know Nader is the only one who can Martyr, your team mates know that as well I would hope. So how is it random?

Random implies there is zero to no consistency, but there is here.

  1. It’s only one Merc, so you know who to look for to expect it
  2. You have a good period of time to get away with a 0.9 second fuse
  3. Even if you can’t see her because someone is blocking you, the person in front of you can make a call and say there is a Nader
  4. You can safely finish her from afar if needed, and since you know what she can do just avoid knifing her.

They might give it a slightly longer fuse later on, but the ability itself is perfectly fair because you have all the cues you need to know

[quote=“Amerika;18819”]
These forums, however, have in some spots become a place for certain types to simply be contradictory for the sake of it. You can disagree with what you like compared to what I like but you can’t argue that the game become more random with the change. That is simply a fact. Yet, here we are.[/quote]

The game isn’t more random to me at all, that may seem that way to you but that’s YOUR perspective, and that could come from a lot of different factors, but not the game itself.

The game gives you all the tools you need, you choosing not to use them or pay attention to them isn’t the game’s fault.

(vivaciousCanteloupe) #22

@Amerika No, it is not rocket surgery and you just don’t get it. Your 2vs2 scenario is precisely what we are trying to tell you. If you don’t see that two others are fighting next to you and that too is a threat to you as well as the one you are fighting, that makes you a bad player when compared to someone that sees the situation he is in and acts! You are blaming the game mechanic for you not being good enough! And being bad is not wrong! It is just wrong to go onto the boards and blame the game! The more you play the more situational awareness you get! Just by playing and you will find your self less and less in situation like your 2vs2 example or in similar (cuz you say it is just one example of many)

And like Zenity is telling you as well …”which is why not getting into those situations in the first place (or minimising the occurrence) is part of the game.”

And to your other post “Expecting somebody to call out that a Nader is behind a teammate”
No, don’t expect anyone to tell you! See it for your self and react! That’s the point!

And for your medic example, unaware team mates (unaware players) is suppose to die! (You help them as good as you can! I am not saying dont help them!)
I hope I don´t make it sound like I am attacking you here! :slight_smile:

(Amerika) #23

My use case clearly outlined why the player didn’t see the Nader, the time frame in which things happens and the outcome of that situation pre-patch and post-patch. In the past your teammate would have helped you in that small window of time where you couldn’t possibly be aware of the Nader behind you due to the nature of the environment (firefight/different engagements) and the time frame (extremely short). Now, given the same scenario after the patch, it’s not possible to help your teammate. And you die an unavoidable death.

Zenity had it right. You’re trying to minimize situations like this. I am doing my part to minimize situations where you will die when it’s completely out of your control. I do this in game and I’m doing it here on the forums. I have stated a pretty sound use case where it’s not possible for the player to be in control regardless of how good or aware they are. Yet some are calling the person in this situation bad and that he should have known.

Explain to me, using my scenario, exactly how YOU as a player would have been aware of the situation and how it’s not a random death that was preventable in the previous patch? Remember, you’re using my scenario and time frame here and not a version of your own.

I don’t think you’re attacking me. I think the few of you commenting are being unreasonable and contradictory for the sake of it rather than being logical about a game mechanic that has changed the meta of the game to veer to a slightly more random angle from my perspective. You might like the mechanic. I’m cool with that…enjoy. But don’t try to call the actual mechanic not random given the scenario I outlined or the player bad because they don’t have a 6th sense to just know a Nader is dropped in directly behind them and died super quick while you’re also in a firefight (and expecting all that to be communicated to you via a teammate as well in less than 3 seconds while they are in a firefight).

(DadoPeja) #24

I dont remeber when i gibed the nader after patch last time- they all spam f key when they die no time to gib - i dont really like it

(watsyurdeal) #25

Alright let’s take a good look here

  1. Alright, so first of all, what class are you playing? If you are playing Bush or Proxy lay your mines down and get near the corners. If you’re anything else why aren’t you on the roof or even flank? Frist question I would ask myself in your shoes is where is the best spot for me to be.

  2. The Nader dropped in because nobody covered the roof, and the moment she comes in you should have immediately gone outside, even if that means letting them near the point. Nader is a great threat in closed room because of the Martyr.

  3. A bit of a nitpick but why wasn’t your team mate attacking the Medic with you? She is a high priority target, Nader isn’t so much, since she can’t plant or revive. So why he didn’t help you there I don’t know.

If I was in your shoes, I would a) only be in the room itself if there was a plant, otherwise I’d be on the roof. b) I would focus the Nader first and get her down while heading outside the room into an open area. That or die killing the enemy Medic. If it’s an Aura, she should be EASY kill if you have good aim, she dies very quickly. If it’s Sawbonez, don’t give him a chance to throw down a pack, or if he does that’s the perfect time to shoot him since he won’t regenerate health faster than you can shoot.

Again, randomness is always there, but you can’t sit there and say there’s nothing you could have done, because there IS. And that is the point people are trying to make.

Instead of being like me and raging when you die, assess WHY you died and try to look out for that next time. Trust me, you’ll be a lot better off that way.

(watsyurdeal) #26

Alright let’s take a good look here

  1. Alright, so first of all, what class are you playing? If you are playing Bush or Proxy lay your mines/sentry down and get near the corners or preferably outside the room towards your spawn so you can cover the left and right side. If you’re anything else why aren’t you on the roof or even near the elevator? First question I would ask myself in your shoes is where is the best spot for me to be.

  2. The Nader dropped in because nobody covered the roof, and the moment she comes in you should have immediately gone outside, even if that means letting them near the point. Nader is a great threat in closed room because of the Martyr but she can’t plant fast.

  3. A bit of a nitpick but why wasn’t your team mate attacking the Medic with you? She is a high priority target, Nader isn’t so much, since she can’t plant or revive. So why he didn’t help you there I don’t know.

If I was in your shoes, I would a) only be in the room itself if there was a plant, otherwise I’d be on the roof. b) I would focus the Nader first and get her down while heading outside the room into an open area. That or die killing the enemy Medic. If it’s an Aura, she should be EASY kill if you have good aim, she dies very quickly. If it’s Sawbonez, don’t give him a chance to throw down a pack, or if he does that’s the perfect time to shoot him since he won’t regenerate health faster than you can shoot.

Again, randomness is always there, but you can’t sit there and say there’s nothing you could have done, because there IS. And that is the point people are trying to make.

Instead of being like me and raging when you die, assess WHY you died and try to look out for that next time. Trust me, you’ll be a lot better off that way.

(watsyurdeal) #27

double

(Amerika) #28

Explain to me, using my scenario, exactly how YOU as a player would have been aware of the situation and how it’s not a random death that was preventable in the previous patch? Remember, you’re using my scenario and time frame here and not a version of your own.

Alright let’s take a good look here

  1. Alright, so first of all, what class are you playing? If you are playing Bush or Proxy lay your mines/sentry down and get near the corners or preferably outside the room towards your spawn so you can cover the left and right side. If you’re anything else why aren’t you on the roof or even near the elevator? First question I would ask myself in your shoes is where is the best spot for me to be.

The situation is merc agnostic. It also takes place in less than 3 seconds. You engage a medic at the west door who just came around the corner while standing behind the plant pole. Precisely when this happens the Nader drops in behind you and behind your field of vision. You couldn’t hear the Nader because they either snuck, super jumped from distance and there is firing going on in the room and outside. They do not drop within your field of view…even for players who use 120 fisheye. The Nader dies quickly due to your teammate engaging them and they die behind you. Again, this happens in about ~2 seconds. The nader can immediately activate and .9 seconds later martyrdom takes you down. That is the scenario. Saying, “why isn’t the roof clear” or “why weren’t you on the roof” or “why didn’t you have mines down if you were proxy” is not applicable.

  1. The Nader dropped in because nobody covered the roof, and the moment she comes in you should have immediately gone outside, even if that means letting them near the point. Nader is a great threat in closed room because of the Martyr but she can’t plant fast.

This is irrelevant to the scenario. Sometimes you can’t be on the roof or somebody else can’t be etc. Or perhaps somebody was and the Nader dropped in while mostly hurt and died instantly directly behind you to a teammate. Changing the scenario and citing mechanics that we all know has no bearing on the situation.

  1. A bit of a nitpick but why wasn’t your team mate attacking the Medic with you? She is a high priority target, Nader isn’t so much, since she can’t plant or revive. So why he didn’t help you there I don’t know.

I’ve stated the time frame and the sequence/timing of events a few times. The Nader comes in around the same time as the medic attacking through the west door. Teammate chooses to engage the Nader who is a direct threat that is easily viewable.

If I was in your shoes, I would a) only be in the room itself if there was a plant, otherwise I’d be on the roof. b) I would focus the Nader first and get her down while heading outside the room into an open area. That or die killing the enemy Medic. If it’s an Aura, she should be EASY kill if you have good aim, she dies very quickly. If it’s Sawbonez, don’t give him a chance to throw down a pack, or if he does that’s the perfect time to shoot him since he won’t regenerate health faster than you can shoot.

Again, randomness is always there, but you can’t sit there and say there’s nothing you could have done, because there IS. And that is the point people are trying to make.

Instead of being like me and raging when you die, assess WHY you died and try to look out for that next time. Trust me, you’ll be a lot better off that way.

This is a theoretical use case that could potentially happen in a pub or a tournament match to anybody. You are not in my shoes as I wasn’t in these particular shoes. I am not asking on advice on a situation that happened to me. I am asking how you could believe a player did wrong in this situation given what happened, how it happened and how it would have been avoided in the past. You haven’t done that yet. How, according to my situation, is the person/s in this situation “bad players” and how could they have communicated the information you insist they should have in less than 3 seconds given what happened? How does the martyrdom change not add to the RNG element of the game where you die in this type of situation. It clearly seems pretty RNG to me which the game didn’t have before and that’s been my point this whole time.

(watsyurdeal) #29

I’m sorry, I could respond to the whole post but I really do not have time to explain every little detail of what you could have done differently, only for you to turn around and tell me that it doesn’t matter because you would have still died in that specific scenario. Based on the choices you and you alone made, and no amount of what if can fix.

There are a TON of situations where you are basically boned, like a Sniper being at the corner to pop you, in a spot that’s odd and out of place. Or a Medic who you don’t see or notice coming around the corner to revive the guy you just killed as you’re reloading and walking toward him to finish with your knife. Or two people who are shooting you at the same time from two different angles.

The reality is, deal with it

Nothing you’ve said really proves any sort of point that the mechanic is op or needs more looking at. It’s really more of a “I died in this specific scenario, how do you explain that? How is this fair?”. To that, most people will say, “quit bitching” cause that’s exactly what it is. You are playing a shooter, YOU WILL DIE, THAT IS JUST PART OF THE GAME.

Unless you actually have real argument as to why it shouldn’t be the game, please do not come on here and post about it. Because it’s pointless for the devs to look at something that is purely circumstantial, if it’s clear issue with actual evidence to prove and or back it up, then they can absolutely do something.

(Amerika) #30

You are exactly the reason why these forums are not well respected in my personal circles. You have no idea what a use case is and aren’t even attempting to analyze a particular situation and it’s outcome now compared to what it could have been in the previous patch. I explained exactly how more RNG was added to the game with a scenario that can’t be changed. That’s the point which you aren’t understanding and are arguing for no reason.

This is how problem solving and critical thinking works. You break down a possible/probable event and compare it to what happens now versus what has happened in the past. You figure out what external factors might influence the outcome so that you aren’t looking at it purely in a vacuum and then talk it over with your peers and make a decision as to whether or not it was something you or others would want. I might not but you might. But we both realize that something has actually changed and that this type of event is a likely use case that will happen to people during play.

I don’t know why you are being not only unreasonable, contradictory and combative but you’re also telling me what is and is not a “real argument” despite my methodology being a pretty common one used in multiple industries around the world (which I use daily for work).

I’ve said what i wanted. I don’t like the mechanic. Please change SD B)

(brazenInspiration) #31

I dont understand why people are so vividly defending an inherently unskillful mechanic.
Martyrdom has been slammed, even in the CoD community which is the most mainstream, casual FPS there currently is.
It is a mechanic that I do not see adding any interesting gameplay. “I am dead but Id still like to do some harm” is a concept I am very much against.
What has happend in recent years? I remember back when consumers were actually critically examining design decisions. Now it feels like a part of the community has turned into some volunteer PR team ready to defend every single issue that comes up. Usually by implying the person originally voicing a complaint just isnt good enough.
I am currently waiting for a topic of mine to be approved in which I discuss the massive amount of explosive weapons and skills which has shifted the game away from skill based, tracking gunplay to a mess of explosive spam. In my oppinion explosives should have their specific, limited applications and leave the person using them exposed and vunerable to projectile weapons. The reality in game looks entirely different.

(Szakalot) #32

bottom line is that martyrdom is REALLY EASY TO AVOID, so i dont see it as game changing in any way really. With 3 naders per team i maybe get killed once from martyrdom and i almost always consider it my fault.

(crimsonYouth) #33

I also hate how people who compare it to CoD… in CoD you can not tell who has it. In DB you can clearly see who is Nader and guess what…100% of Naders have it!!! If you die to it, it is because you were not paying attention.

(triteTongs) #34

[quote=“brazenInspiration;18879”]I dont understand why people are so vividly defending an inherently unskillful mechanic.
Martyrdom has been slammed, even in the CoD community which is the most mainstream, casual FPS there currently is.[/quote]

Because I can count on a single finger the number of times I’ve died from martyrdom in the past 6 hours of playtime.
Is it an unskillfull mechanic or is it an unskilled player that just can’t handle it?

How is it any different from a proxy putting a mine down right before she dies and you running over it? Where is the uproar in that?

(watsyurdeal) #35

Ima get you a hammer, cause you nailed it

(capriciousParsely) #36

[quote=“brazenInspiration;18879”]I dont understand why people are so vividly defending an inherently unskillful mechanic.
Martyrdom has been slammed, even in the CoD community which is the most mainstream, casual FPS there currently is.
[/quote]

Because the difference between the martydom in COD and this game is like night and day. In COD, it was a perk you could choose between alot others so you never knew if someone had it. Grenades in that game are also alot harder to spot, whereas in DB, they have a red outline. Don’t forget the fact that you could use a perk that increased the blast radius aswell of it, and that the overall structure of respawns and map-layout made it really really annoying to play against.

In this game however, every Nader has it. You know when you face a Nader that you can’t stand close to her if she dies. You also have to activate it yourself and if you do, you can’t be revived (which is a huge tradeoff). Generally aswell, you don’t get flanked in this game alot either, so very rarely do you just stumble upon a dead Nader that lies in wait for you with the skill. Unless, like said before, you pay no attention to your surroundings. Also! Don’t forget that it’s a 1 second activation skill, meaning there’s a bit strategy behind it. You can also outsprint it and survive easily. In COD, you were dead instantly.

Basically, it’s fine.

(Stynzerman) #37

I was bringing up the fact of spamming and this got way off topic. The better the feedback the better this game will be when finished…

(watsyurdeal) #38

To be honest, I find spamming nades with Nader utterly USELESS.

The damage model for them really works honestly, but I’d like to see direct shots with her be rewarded more than spam.

I’d gladly give up one nade for the ability to one shot Vasilli and anything with 100 hp or less. Especially considering how much harder it is to land projectile shots than hitscan.

(Ardez1) #39

[quote=“brazenInspiration;18879”]I dont understand why people are so vividly defending an inherently unskillful mechanic.
Martyrdom has been slammed, even in the CoD community which is the most mainstream, casual FPS there currently is.
It is a mechanic that I do not see adding any interesting gameplay. “I am dead but Id still like to do some harm” is a concept I am very much against.
[/quote]

Then you might not be aware of Phoenix :slight_smile:
Medic that can self-revive when downed. Have fun.

IMHO, Martydom was fine when you could counter it by gibbing Nader. With that no longer being an option, I am very against it. Before timing & knowledge could prevent your death, now only running for your life will save you(unless you are already far away or have very high HP).

I don’t mind the ability, just the lack of a counter besides stay far away.

Quick Question, can Pineapple Juggler throw her Martydom nade?

(fubar) #40

I don’t like Nader, at all - currently. Her ability is near to useless, the damage is non-existent apart from direct hits, the nades can’t even achieve something as simple as gibbing. Right now she’s just another SMG with nothing really to offer. Especially considering how, insanely long, it takes for nades to blow up once shot. For crying out loud I can shoot 3 nades before the first even explodes. You try your hardest to avoid spam, yet you design a merc to do nothing but spam due to her very lackluster ability. Martyrdom is completely irrelevant in competitive anyway. Instead of giving her an additional nade and decreased cooldown they should really look at the damage instead.