Nader vs Fragger, small suggestion and concept for Fragger's character identity

(Massive_Banana) #1

Recently picked up the game, and I’ve put a good 25 or so hours thus far and I really like the game. I wanted to ask everybody what’s your opinion on the 2, Fragger vs Nader.

I find Nader to be great, very strong and fun to play, only wish she can have up to 6 grenades at a time, but that’s a different subject.

As for Fragger he’s awesome as well, but I feel like he’s lacking when compared to Nader. Like sure he has more health to compensate speed and has access to an LMG. However why is that he only can hold up to 2 grenades with a cool down of 1 minute each, meanwhile, Nader is able to hold up to 5 grenades with a cool down of 7 seconds each. Sure more damage on them, but does it really make that much of a difference? Like why can’t he have like maybe a cap of 3 grenades with a cool down of each being 45 seconds? That seems more reasonable to me, but is there something I’m missing that makes Fragger the way he currently is? Would love to hear opinions on Fragger and his character both mechanically and aesthetically.

Also what do you guys think of having some sort of Stim pack skill for Fragger? He is a soldier after all, and I think giving him one would give him more character and allow him to be more tactical. For example, what I had in mind is that he takes some sort of adrenaline like syringe, giving him a crazy increase in speed and melee damage for 5 seconds while taking small damage over time for the duration, once the buff ends he starts to recover health, but is slowed for around 5 seconds; this regen can be interrupted, cool down of 1.5 minutes. You’ll have to be able to read the situation and tactically use the skill or it backfires on you. The ability concept definitely needs work, but I feel like Fragger needs better character identity. I would love your guys thoughts about this. What better yet to test these types of concepts then during the beta.

TLDR: Please give Fragger a third grenade at the very least with a slightly lower recharge rate, he seems a bit underwhelming at times compared to Nader over this free mercs rotation

(Vexed) #2

Fragger is already disgustingly powerful, because although he has less grenades on a longer cooldown, they deal up to 150 damage each in a large radius and, by cooking them ahead of time, they can be made to detonate exactly when they reach the middle of a group of enemies. They will also instantly gib any enemy that was standing close enough to the blast, denying revival opportunities. The cooldown is not a full minute either. It’s around the 40-45 second mark or thereabouts, I don’t remember it exactly.

Nader, by comparison, has more grenades, but they deal less damage in a smaller radius. She can instantly kill squishier mercs, but only with a direct hit, which deals 90 damage only and will not gib the corpse. While the two mercs appear superficially similar, they still fill slightly different niches and, moreover, Fragger certainly doesn’t need to be given additional tools to be powerful.

Edit: formatting error

(Massive_Banana) #3

I guess so, but it just seems like Nader was a stronger pick during the free rotation weekend, I’ve seen so many stacks of Naders on a single team that it made me feel that Fragger was subpar pick compared to her.

Last I played, I was sure that Fragger’s grenade recharge was longer than 45 seconds, it felt like forever, but I can definitely see how the bigger blast and damage can compensate. Still though I think that and cooking it isn’t exactly a big enough impact. Like Nader’s grenades do around 90 and they pop after 1.5 seconds, with 5 in the barrel (waiting 35 seconds for recharge); that’s 450 points worth of upfront damage, with that you can definitely clear up a room and finish off any stragglers. At least give him a 3rd grenade, I would like that at the very least.

But thanks for the insight, but maybe I’m just not playing Fragger to the best of his abilities.

(GregHouseMD) #4

Cooking frag grenades makes all the difference in the world. 1.5 seconds is more than enough time for experienced players to at least get some distance, if not negate the damage entirely. A frag grenade timed to explode the moment it gets close enough to kill, however, offers very little chance to escape, unless you can anticipate it before it’s even thrown.

Nader certainly can clear a room - it’s her job, more or less. However, she does this by forcing people to leave to avoid that damage, not by killing them outright. Fragger cuts out the middle man, and usually just kills people.

Mind you, there are situations where Nader is better than Fragger - situations where the volume of grenades is more important than the damage of individual grenades. Fragger is just more well-rounded ( he can function properly on any map - Nader has some limitations ).

Also: I’m fairly certain Nader’s grenades only do that kind of damage on direct hits, which are far trickier to land than a well-cooked frag grenade.

I hope that helps clear it up a bit.

(Massive_Banana) #5

I see, well I guess I just haven’t played enough to see that many situations where the 1.5 seconds being enough for enemy players. Since it tends to surprise most, if not all of them that I’ve encountered. If that’s the case as to why Fragger is stuck with a cap of 2 grenades with a moderately long recharge time, then I suppose I should probably play better then.

So out of the 2 which would you recommend that serves better as kind of the assault, gotta punch through the front lines type of merc

(Vexed) #6

Depends, but generally Fragger - more health, and cooking a grenade while you run in will net you a kill or two before you even open fire. Nader takes a more deliberate approach, flushing with some well-placed rebound shots before advancing on the objective.

Unless you just want to score martydom kills, of course. But then, martyrdom does exactly the same damage in the same radius as a Fragger grenade, so it’s really Fragger again, just by a different name.

(GregHouseMD) #7

Well, it’s more the follow-up grenades. If people take damage from a grenade, they tend to GTFO, unless they have a death wish. Unless that first grenade was a direct hit, they still have a good chunk of HP left.

It’s great in certain situations, for sure. Nader can really hold down tight passages where direct hits are easy, and saturating a healing station with grenades is a great approach - including Rhino/Aura combos.

In most cases, Fragger can do the same, and often he does it better. Also, regardless of which one you play, you’re not going to be using grenades all the time. You have to use your weapons, too. And in those cases, Fragger is in a league above Nader ( or anyone else, for that matter ).

(Yak) #8

At lower levels of play, Nader does amazing because players don’t know how to counter her or avoid her grenades, and lower skill level Fraggers don’t realize they can cook their nades and throw them at enemies with the full fuse.

At higher levels though, Fragger is a monster. Cooked nades are insanely hard to dodge without anticipating them coming, he has the second most hp in the game, and access to the best weapon.

(Massive_Banana) #9

Thanks for all of the info and feed back guys, was not expecting such a good amount of detailed responses, this means I’ll just have to swap between the 2 whenever I want to change things up and/or based on the map. I’ll be sure to keep all of these in mind then for future references.

(Amerika) #10

Nader is much weaker than Fragger when compared. Fragger has access to better guns, more HP and his grenades are cookable. Sure, you can spam nader nades but you will rarely get a direct hit and anybody who has some experience in the game will be able to move out of the way of incoming nader nades. You can’t move out of the way of a cooked Fragger nade. They pretty much guarantee a kill on every throw and many times you’ll get 2-3 kills with them.

Fragger has already had to be toned down in many many ways. Reload time on the LMG nerfed, augments nerfs due to fragger (drilled and explodydendron), LMG accuracy nerfed, nades moved to a 1 minute CD instead of 45 seconds, aoe damage toned down A LOT, nade speed toned down a lot, cooking a nade and switching to a weapon now incurs a 15 second CD. And even with all these nerfs Fragger is still a beast and is pretty much the point man on every single competitive team.

Nader is great when used correctly and in the right situations. But Fragger, overall, is far superior in potential killing power even with fewer explosives handy at any one time.

(Dr_Fumbles) #11

nader is WAY weaker than fragger. not even a close fight.

Honestly think fraggers nades should be on a lower cooldown, but should NOT one shot people.

One shot mechanics are cheap and take away from any skill anyone might have and only breeds more cheese.

(efficientCookie) #12

Nader and Fragger are both quite different, Nader is a zoning area denial merc whereas Fragger is a player slayer merc, who’s designed only for killing. In certain areas where zoning and area denial are important, Nader’s continuos stream of grenades is more useful and then Fraggers grenades cooked or not. However, when you need to straight up kill other players or deal very high damage in a short time, Fragger is more valuable. Also, Nader is not really weaker in higher level play, its just that most people would prefer the ability to dominate the team the other team on kills with Fragger, then use Nader for area denial which is much more specific and requires you to be good with bouncing her grenades around corners or over things accurately, and if your able to kill the enemy team rather than just hold then off or push them back, why wouldn’t you? But in the situations where that can’t be done Nader is a better choice.

(Sorotia) #13

[quote=“Massive_Banana;58597”]I guess so, but it just seems like Nader was a stronger pick during the free rotation weekend, I’ve seen so many stacks of Naders on a single team that it made me feel that Fragger was subpar pick compared to her.

Last I played, I was sure that Fragger’s grenade recharge was longer than 45 seconds, it felt like forever, but I can definitely see how the bigger blast and damage can compensate. Still though I think that and cooking it isn’t exactly a big enough impact. Like Nader’s grenades do around 90 and they pop after 1.5 seconds, with 5 in the barrel (waiting 35 seconds for recharge); that’s 450 points worth of upfront damage, with that you can definitely clear up a room and finish off any stragglers. At least give him a 3rd grenade, I would like that at the very least.

But thanks for the insight, but maybe I’m just not playing Fragger to the best of his abilities.[/quote]

Because that is mostly just a bunch of idiots thinking throwing away grenades everywhere like they’re going out of style will get them lots of kills…and it may if you have enough grenades in a small enough area…like had a game against 4 naders in underground, which made it hell but we were able to defend. They see a person kicking ass with it and they think it’s super powerful. They don’t do their job and use it as a damage mechanic and they don’t have grenades when it means something.

Just like now with Bushwacker…you’ll see a ton of Bushwackers running around spamming their turrets all over the place…thinking they’re killing machines…and boy have I seen some terrible placements…and once again more often then not you’ll see Bushwackers going purely for kills and they don’t even bother to do objectives.

(MTLMortis) #14

Once you get good with Nader you can start using the GL as a shotgun with the added bonus of being able to arc them across the map.

(MarsRover) #15

Yep. It’s fun being called an aimboter because you scored a few direct hits with the GL. Nader it’s the most fun merc in the game for me.