Nader possible improvements

(RasteRayzeR) #1

I’ve played a lot with Nader lately (as some may have noticed :tongue:) and here are a couple of points I wanted to share because I think they would improve this merc further more.

[ol]
[li]Grenade life time in flight: the grenades have a defined fly time and they explode after that. This means that if you fire the grenade too high, it will never touch the ground again. Now I’d like that the grenades explode only on contact if the fly time is over, or on the third bounce if the fly time is not over.[/li][li]Grenade minimum explosion distance: I would be interested to put a lower bound to the grenade’s distance to travel before it may explode, something like 1 or 2 meters where it doesn’t explode on impact, but damages the enemy because of the hit (40 dmg ?) and the grenade just bounces off the enemy, exploding after its timer is out.[/li][li]Launcher’s firing rate: I’d like it slightly faster, because right now the rate of fire is a limitation to the number of frags you can get in a short time (10 seconds). Killing sprees are either one grenade killing two guys, or two guys in a row with a lot of luck.[/li][li]Grenades timer: I’d like that the timer of the grenades becomes shorter. Right now if it bounces only once, the enemy has way too much time to escape it.[/li][li]Pistol: I really like the pistol, but why does a merc with a grenade launcher and a damn loud automatic rifle has a silencer on her pistol ??? Let it make a lot of noise please ![/li][/ol]

Otherwise I really like Nader, the rifle feels great and the ballistic curve of the grenades requires skill and training to be efficient with.

(Smooth) #2

All very good points! :wink:

(RasteRayzeR) #3

And right in the ears of the concerned person :smiley:

(Ceres) #4

As a rifle nader in W:ET, I like the idea of this “Nader” class but to my disappointment it’s nothing even close to the rifle nade in ET.

I would obviously love it if it could be close to that because I think the rnade has a huge impact in ET and I believe Nader should have the same impact here to make the class more viable and maybe even a requirement for teams.
As of right now, I think this class is really weak. The launcher and grenades are easy to escape and do very little damage. You are rewarded if you spam them and manage to hit with a couple of consecutive shots. I don’t like that spam strategy. I can see why the suggestions RayzeR posted would make sense but I would rather have it the other way around. That is:

  • Load time is good, maybe a bit too fast.
  • Limit the amount of grenades you can fire at a time to maybe like 2 in an interval of say 2-3 seconds
  • Increase the damage significantly so you are actually rewarded with a kill or at least a ton of HP lowered from the opponent if you do hit with 1 grenade.

I think the purpose of the launcher shouldn’t be to constantly spam with it but rather to: pull it out, fire a long shot or bounce it off a wall,kill someone or disrupt the camping enemy, and then continue with your current weapon (Crotzni?).

I believe the the bouncing technique used in this game is also not very well made as the grenades bounce off in a weird way on similar surfaces/corners.

Otherwise, I agree @ the point with the silencer on the pistol.

I will continue with the input on this specific character as it’s the closest to what I’ve played in another game.

(RasteRayzeR) #5

[QUOTE=Ceres;494998]As a rifle nader in W:ET, I like the idea of this “Nader” class but to my disappointment it’s nothing even close to the rifle nade in ET.

I would obviously love it if it could be close to that because I think the rnade has a huge impact in ET and I believe Nader should have the same impact here to make the class more viable and maybe even a requirement for teams.
As of right now, I think this class is really weak. The launcher and grenades are easy to escape and do very little damage. You are rewarded if you spam them and manage to hit with a couple of consecutive shots. I don’t like that spam strategy. I can see why the suggestions RayzeR posted would make sense but I would rather have it the other way around. That is:

  • Load time is good, maybe a bit too fast.
  • Limit the amount of grenades you can fire at a time to maybe like 2 in an interval of say 2-3 seconds
  • Increase the damage significantly so you are actually rewarded with a kill or at least a ton of HP lowered from the opponent if you do hit with 1 grenade.

I think the purpose of the launcher shouldn’t be to constantly spam with it but rather to: pull it out, fire a long shot or bounce it off a wall,kill someone or disrupt the camping enemy, and then continue with your current weapon (Crotzni?).

I believe the the bouncing technique used in this game is also not very well made as the grenades bounce off in a weird way on similar surfaces/corners.[/QUOTE]

I hardly see how with a pool of 6 grenades you can spam… I’ve been focusing on getting triple kills and more with it and I can tell you, the only way to reach that is to be very accurate and know perfectly the ballistic, because if you miss 2 grenades, you’re down to a double kill at best.

Also in W:ET the grenade launcher was not the primary weapon and it was for an engineer, not a soldier. With Nader you kind of have to rely on it to truly harness her firepower. I know she’s hard to use at first, but after playing a full month with her only, I can tell you it gets really better. If the feedback I gave in the OP is applied, I think the grenade launcher would become more consistent and thus funnier to handle.

Maybe before thinking to redo everything from scratch, it would be wise to see how such modifications could improve the current grenade launcher. Also I’ve reported two bugs that may also make you feel like the grenade launcher is not that great at the moment :

(http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/39908-Nader-s-grenade-launcher-2-big-bugs).

btw, have you been playing Nader for a long time ? I mean did you train hard with her grenade launcher ?

EDIT : for me the grenade launcher is a lot of fun, and it’s on the right path. Just need some tweaking imo. The grenade launcher of W:ET wouldn’t fit in XT’s maps, better forget about it …

(Glottis-3D) #6

i like current nade launcher.
but i am huge fan of some other GL’s
like in quake1 or quake3

so, i hope we can have another merc with a nade launcher, with different mechanics and different style.

but, bouncing feels not very well.
in quake3 i knew exactly where my nade goes after it hits the wall. unlike Xt.

(Ceres) #7

You are right about one thing, I haven’t played enough. Actually, most of you have around 7-8 months on me due to this game being impossible to play with an old PC. Now I can play without a prob at 120+ fps even without a config. (which is still very low IMO)

Back to your points. With 6 grenades you can spam plenty as you can just launch them one after another. That’s fine atm because they don’t do much anyway.

Whether the grenade launcher was the primary weapon in ET or not doesn’t really matter. It’s not the primary weapon here either. It was for an engineer but classes in this game don’t really matter the way they matter in ET as it seems. You can plant and defuse stuff as a medic… or maybe I am missing something here? I don’t find the launcher hard to use. I think it’s just really under powered and that if it’s made stronger than it will be overpowered. That’s why I suggested what I would like to see above. I have to mention that I am thinking about competitive play here though. I am not looking for the funnier or easier way to handle things.

I saw the bugs that you posted and I feel like they happen too often. I doubt they will be fixed anytime soon though,

Whether the rnade of ET would fit in with XT’s maps is still unclear. That’s why this game is still in alpha/beta (?)
Anything can and should be changed for the better before it’s released.

(RasteRayzeR) #8

Well, enjoy your new config and play a bit more of Nader. I’m sure you will see with time why the grenade launcher should rather be quick with “low” damage (you can one shoot all the light classes) than slow with high damage.

  • 6 grenades go terribly fast, and you often shoot a few blindly to clear or block a way. You never have the full stack when you attack.
  • XT is not ET. The rnade of ET had an amazing firing range and was insta-kill and was fun because there was big maps with larger teams. That’s not XT
  • The classless objectives have nothing to do with Nader’s grenade launcher. What I meant is that it is normal for a soldier to have a high damage output and ways to block the enemy. It’s not the role of an engineer and that’s why in ET it was slow with a lot of damage.
  • The grenade launcher need more time to get accustomed to than regular weapon that don’t feature ballistic for their projectiles. Successfully hitting an enemy leaves it very low on health, thus easy to finish with the rifle.
  • Funnier should be the first interest in the game, and easier to handle was meant as consistent: aka the same reactions appears each time you fire a direct hit or a bouncy grenade.

I agree that everything should be changed for the better, hence my OP, but I also know it won’t be possible to fix everything before release. The changes I proposed are easier to implement and test than changing completely the concept about how the grenade launcher is supposed to be used.

(PixelTwitch) #9

The issue with some of the points you made in the OP is that it would turn the nader into to much of an artillery class with the ability to keep dropping nades from a very long distance onto/into choke points. I think the best example is when you plant the C4 on the train…

My biggest issue with the OP is that all your points are a outright BUFF.

(RasteRayzeR) #10

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;495308]The issue with some of the points you made in the OP is that it would turn the nader into to much of an artillery class with the ability to keep dropping nades from a very long distance onto/into choke points. I think the best example is when you plant the C4 on the train…

My biggest issue with the OP is that all your points are a outright BUFF.[/QUOTE]

This is not true. She cannot become a human-mortar because of the rate of regeneration of the nades. It’s simply not possible. Also inducing a minimum distance to trigger the nades is a buff, I get a lot of kills because of this right now and usually win because I have more HP as a soldier and resist better the blast.

Have you played Nader ? If not try her, and tell me if you can spam for more than 15 seconds with her nades, because I cannot …

(tokamak) #11

Shockwaves! The grenades don’t throw the players around enough. Nader’s explosives need to cause a big mess in situations like the first Canary objective. Entrenched defenders should be bounced out of their positions by the blasts.

(RasteRayzeR) #12

What you are suggesting here is a new merc lol

(tokamak) #13

I wouldn’t complain. Nader looks too much like an ex-girlfriend.

(RasteRayzeR) #14

Have you even tried her once ? LOL

She has plenty enough firepower, one requires to know how to harness it though, which is exactly what you want from a merc

(tokamak) #15

I’m not talking about lethality. The grenade should push the players back more.

(Glottis-3D) #16

Nade-shooting does feel strange. is there a spread mb? or smthng

(tokamak) #17

Martyrdom is a bit lacklustre. What about a cluster of grenades bouncing in random directions? It’s effect would be less hit-and-miss and more about area control.

(Glottis-3D) #18

bouning is the most problem, indeed. very random.

(RasteRayzeR) #19

No I don’t think so, the nades always go where you point them so you can learn the ballistic. At least now I can better estimate the angle to use to drop a nice nade.

Random is never good in a competitive game.

Yes, but not the bounciness (I find it nice now), rather the time until it explodes which is far too long at the moment. It’s easier to get you nades where you want if enemies don’t have the time to sip a cup of tea while dancing on your nade and then just leave and escape it …

(tokamak) #20

[QUOTE=RasteRayzeR;495477]Random is never good in a competitive game.
[/QUOTE]

Fine scrap the random. Not the most important part of the idea.