My suggestions for making Dirty Bomb a good tournament game

(Anti) #121

I know strychzilla is trolling but I’ll rise to it anyway :slight_smile:

I’m not sure any game is ever “the game I wanted to make”, unless you make it all yourself. Every game has a huge number of stakeholders involved in making it, each want it to be different. It’s the same with the players, you all want a new game to be something you like and you agree on a lot of mechanics, but you still have thousands of unique views of what it should be.

This was the case on Brink, just like it was on all of our previous games, and the result was a hybrid of the stakeholders’ feelings and ideas.

In the case of DB we have a very different dev team to the one Brink had, we have a different publisher (essentially ourselves), we have early access from fans and we have different tech, so we have very different stakeholders. DB will be a product of all of their views and you guys are stakeholders as well, so your views are part of that.

I think with DB the important thing is that there is a lot closer agreement and understanding between the stakeholders of what the game should be than we’ve maybe had for quite some time, so it should please more people.

(ImageOmega) #122

[QUOTE=Anti;433166]I know strychzilla is trolling but I’ll rise to it anyway :slight_smile:

I’m not sure any game is ever “the game I wanted to make”, unless you make it all yourself. Every game has a huge number of stakeholders involved in making it, each want it to be different. It’s the same with the players, you all want a new game to be something you like and you agree on a lot of mechanics, but you still have thousands of unique views of what it should be.

This was the case on Brink, just like it was on all of our previous games, and the result was a hybrid of the stakeholders’ feelings and ideas.

In the case of DB we have a very different dev team to the one Brink had, we have a different publisher (essentially ourselves), we have early access from fans and we have different tech, so we have very different stakeholders. DB will be a product of all of their views and you guys are stakeholders as well, so your views are part of that.

I think with DB the important thing is that there is a lot closer agreement and understanding between the stakeholders of what the game should be than we’ve maybe had for quite some time, so it should please more people.[/QUOTE]

I am honestly glad you answer things like this Anti. I love the transparency and it really makes me (us) feel like we are just having a conversation and getting to understand each other rather than a debate. Apparently, you have to be careful when you call people a troll though or else people start down-repping you and messaging you in private, calling you an ass and further threatening your precious Internet stars, as I have personally learned recently. Serious stuff. =]

Anti, I think it’s interesting that you mention all the differing views of the stakeholders. If the forums were a generic representation of stakeholders I could see how much of a variance there is in taste and point of view. Some of it comes from previous game experience, some of it from game mentality, and some of it boils right down to player skill/ability in game.

Would you be willing to share what are some of the basic game mechanics or direction you guys are agreed over? I know recently you posted the player/social interface and lobby akin to LoL was something you were pushing. What other things are you guys really agreeing over? Also, are there any specific things you would like us to speak out about or over? I know maps are a hot topic right now and I have already put the pencil to paper, fleshing out some ideas.

As a player base I think there is a large outcry for player movement. Where do you guys stand on that? I really would like to see movement be closer to Quake or UT2K3 as far as fluidity and freedom of movement. Being able to jump higher (and consequently further) is something I would really appreciate as well.

Thanks again.

(Hundopercent) #123

[QUOTE=Anti;433166]I know strychzilla is trolling but I’ll rise to it anyway :slight_smile:

I’m not sure any game is ever “the game I wanted to make”, unless you make it all yourself. Every game has a huge number of stakeholders involved in making it, each want it to be different. It’s the same with the players, you all want a new game to be something you like and you agree on a lot of mechanics, but you still have thousands of unique views of what it should be.

This was the case on Brink, just like it was on all of our previous games, and the result was a hybrid of the stakeholders’ feelings and ideas.

In the case of DB we have a very different dev team to the one Brink had, we have a different publisher (essentially ourselves), we have early access from fans and we have different tech, so we have very different stakeholders. DB will be a product of all of their views and you guys are stakeholders as well, so your views are part of that.

I think with DB the important thing is that there is a lot closer agreement and understanding between the stakeholders of what the game should be than we’ve maybe had for quite some time, so it should please more people.[/QUOTE]

:slight_smile: - I hope you guys don’t mind my jabs at you guys (that one was more of a sucker punch >.<.) <3 No matter how much **** I talk, I really want DB to be successful. I’ve played over a dozen FPSs and have seen them all come and go some within months due to poor support or just awful decisions. I don’t want to see it happen again because if this game flops I’m going into permanent retirement and start playing ping pong or somethin. =P

On with what you said, Brink looked better in Alpha than it did on release. I’m not really sure what happened but it was obvious the game had a lot of hands on it and what they all wanted it to be.

The fact of the matter is you’ll be hard pressed to grab players from other communities because the other games do it better. You want CoD players? They will never leave CoD because CoD has everything they want and will do it better than DB. Not because you guys can’t make a CoD game but because I don’t think you want to make a CoD game nor do I think the players here want a CoD game.

CoD was successful because it was a somewhat new style of FPS (war realism) and they took full advantage of that and ran with it. Then with CoD 4 they did modern realism and ran with that. The key is that they stood with what they knew (realism) and what their players liked. From there the community kept growing because those players got their friends to play etc etc.

DB isn’t a CoD game. It doesn’t need CoD elements nor does it need movement retardation to try and attract them. Your focus should be on team based game players, the TF2, RtCW, WET, QW, Tribes etc. This game will be a lot more familiar to them and easier for them to switch. All of those games have excellent movement and shooting mechanics with no hiccups.

Basically, make the game for the community that is going to support it and we will get our friends to start playing, and then those friends will get their friends to start playing etc etc. With a strong community you won’t go out of business and since you’re going F2P I can’t see you going out of business. This model basically rapes your playerbase (financially for those sensitive people) and they willing accept it because they love the game and the developers that support it.

(Maca) #124

I think this is quite well put.

(ImageOmega) #125

I think it’s worth mentioning the Quake (1, 2, 3, & Live) and Unreal Tournament crowds. Reason being is because those players are dying for something that reminds me them of the fast paced, high skill ceiling games they used to enjoy. Also, it is worth mentioning that DirtyBombers.com’s forums has plenty of people clamoring for these same things and they haven’t even played the game!

I can’t tell you how excited I am for the progress we are yet to witness in Dirty Bomb. I just hope we can all get together and get the movement where it pleases all those stakeholders you mentioned.

(Anti) #126

In terms of what we agree on, I think Locki’s blog post is the best thing I can point you to…it’s here.

I know that’s talking in high level terms, but the key things are:

[ul]
[li]That fans of SDs previous games should like DB[/li][li]That it’s made for PC, with all that entails[/li][li]That it’s fast paced[/li][li]That it rewards skill[/li][li]That team play is critically important[/li][li]That it can be played competitively [/li][/ul]
What that means in terms of mechanics we’re discovering as we go along to some extent. We thought it felt ‘fast’ to start with, then we looked at things like strafe acceleration with you guys and decided, “OK, that needs more work”, that is how the process should go.

To address strychzilla’s point we’re not actively ‘going after’ CoD players or fans of any other FPS, we’re going after SD fans first, but we cannot ignore other FPS players and we need to make sure that they can find fun in DB and transition to it. We want to give all those guys that never played something like ET the chance to discover that fun, without forsaking everything they know about ‘their’ FPS games, and without that spoiling things for existing SD fans.

What that means we’re still discovering, but as an example I think we’re all agreed that something like strafe jumping, whilst very skillful and fast, makes tracking exceptionally hard for players who have grown up with slow FPS games and near insta-gib weapons. Our solution to that problem, right now, is to try and retain much of that speed but to keep it on a plane, making tracking that bit easier when aiming.

Maybe that will work, maybe it won’t, the closed alpha and closed beta will help answer those questions. I know that is something that will bother some of our existing fans but I don’t think it ruins the essence of what they’d like to play and it certainly doesn’t remove the possibility of us still finding ways to add skillful movement of other types.

These are the reasons DB can’t just be a re-skin of and older title, nor do we want it to be, but it should still be possible to find something that is equally fun and compelling for those fans.

Now I should really do some work and stop posting :smiley:

(ImageOmega) #127

Nice, I remember reading that blog post. This excerpt below is one of the most important fundamentals with Dirty Bomb:

Players should only succeed by competing in battles where skill and tactics alone determine the winners, be it as an individual, group of friends, or team. Players should always understand why they won or lost, or by being part of a social community that shares knowledge, continually learn from other player’s skills, and achieve status and recognition for their own credible successes and contributions.

I think we are getting closer to getting rid of the randomness, although I know that will be continually reintroduced as new classes, weapons, or mechanics are added.

Regarding movement, I definitely understand wanting to appeal to people who grew up with a slower FPS. I love me some strafe jumping, but I don’t necessarily care to see this introduced into Dirty Bomb. I think the sprint mechanic is just fine and does a good job of making this accessible to all players without introducing any sort of learning curve to movement.

What I do want to see with movement is more fluidity in the base movement (while not sprinting) and an increase in speed; especially backpedaling. The jumping right now seems as if you have a 100lb vest on and while realistically, maybe these in-game characters do, I don’t want to feel as if they do. I want them to be super human and able to jump effortlessly. I don’t mind having the slowdown after three consecutive jumps to dissuade or hamper the bunny hopping nature. I just want to be able to jump over things I feel like I should be able to jump over and jump from or to things with ease. Make me feel like I am in control of my player. I’m not playing a simulator, I’m playing an amazing freakin’ shooter that puts you in a fast paced war zone called Dirty Bomb!

(Hundopercent) #128

[QUOTE=ImageOmega;433223]Nice, I remember reading that blog post. This excerpt below is one of the most important fundamentals with Dirty Bomb:

I think we are getting closer to getting rid of the randomness, although I know that will be continually reintroduced as new classes, weapons, or mechanics are added.

Regarding movement, I definitely understand wanting to appeal to people who grew up with a slower FPS. I love me some strafe jumping, but I don’t necessarily care to see this introduced into Dirty Bomb. I think the sprint mechanic is just fine and does a good job of making this accessible to all players without introducing any sort of learning curve to movement.

What I do want to see with movement is more fluidity in the base movement (while not sprinting) and an increase in speed; especially backpedaling. The jumping right now seems as if you have a 100lb vest on and while realistically, maybe these in-game characters do, I don’t want to feel as if they do. I want them to be super human and able to jump effortlessly. I don’t mind having the slowdown after three consecutive jumps to dissuade or hamper the bunny hopping nature. I just want to be able to jump over things I feel like I should be able to jump over and jump from or to things with ease. Make me feel like I am in control of my player. I’m not playing a simulator, I’m playing an amazing freakin’ shooter that puts you in a fast paced war zone called Dirty Bomb![/QUOTE]

Took the words out of my mouth here.

(Hundopercent) #129

[QUOTE=Anti;433208]In terms of what we agree on, I think Locki’s blog post is the best thing I can point you to…it’s here.

I know that’s talking in high level terms, but the key things are:

[ul]
[li]That fans of SDs previous games should like DB[/li][li]That it’s made for PC, with all that entails[/li][li]That it’s fast paced[/li][li]That it rewards skill[/li][li]That team play is critically important[/li][li]That it can be played competitively [/li][/ul]
What that means in terms of mechanics we’re discovering as we go along to some extent. We thought it felt ‘fast’ to start with, then we looked at things like strafe acceleration with you guys and decided, “OK, that needs more work”, that is how the process should go.

To address strychzilla’s point we’re not actively ‘going after’ CoD players or fans of any other FPS, we’re going after SD fans first, but we cannot ignore other FPS players and we need to make sure that they can find fun in DB and transition to it. We want to give all those guys that never played something like ET the chance to discover that fun, without forsaking everything they know about ‘their’ FPS games, and without that spoiling things for existing SD fans.

What that means we’re still discovering, but as an example I think we’re all agreed that something like strafe jumping, whilst very skillful and fast, makes tracking exceptionally hard for players who have grown up with slow FPS games and near insta-gib weapons. Our solution to that problem, right now, is to try and retain much of that speed but to keep it on a plane, making tracking that bit easier when aiming.

Maybe that will work, maybe it won’t, the closed alpha and closed beta will help answer those questions. I know that is something that will bother some of our existing fans but I don’t think it ruins the essence of what they’d like to play and it certainly doesn’t remove the possibility of us still finding ways to add skillful movement of other types.

These are the reasons DB can’t just be a re-skin of and older title, nor do we want it to be, but it should still be possible to find something that is equally fun and compelling for those fans.

Now I should really do some work and stop posting :D[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the response. On paper that sounds like it will work, I just hope it works out the way you guys have it planned.

(Mustang) #130

Could Anti please stop making so many good posts in the same day, either that or increase the +rep limit.

(Nail) #131

so it seems they ARE making the game they want

tough crowd, gotta nudge em sometimes

(revvv) #132

+1 Thanks for saying that !

(INF3RN0) #133

[QUOTE=Nail;433323]so it seems they ARE making the game they want

tough crowd, gotta nudge em sometimes[/QUOTE]

Were just here to help flesh out their ideas and give them more to think about :wink:. And of course… BREAK THE GAME :D!

(Evil-Doer) #134

[QUOTE=Anti;433208]In terms of what we agree on, I think Locki’s blog post is the best thing I can point you to…it’s here.

I know that’s talking in high level terms, but the key things are:

[ul]
[li]That fans of SDs previous games should like DB[/li][li]That it’s made for PC, with all that entails[/li][li]That it’s fast paced[/li][li]That it rewards skill[/li][li]That team play is critically important[/li][li]That it can be played competitively [/li][/ul]
What that means in terms of mechanics we’re discovering as we go along to some extent. We thought it felt ‘fast’ to start with, then we looked at things like strafe acceleration with you guys and decided, “OK, that needs more work”, that is how the process should go.

To address strychzilla’s point we’re not actively ‘going after’ CoD players or fans of any other FPS, we’re going after SD fans first, but we cannot ignore other FPS players and we need to make sure that they can find fun in DB and transition to it. We want to give all those guys that never played something like ET the chance to discover that fun, without forsaking everything they know about ‘their’ FPS games, and without that spoiling things for existing SD fans.

What that means we’re still discovering, but as an example I think we’re all agreed that something like strafe jumping, whilst very skillful and fast, makes tracking exceptionally hard for players who have grown up with slow FPS games and near insta-gib weapons. Our solution to that problem, right now, is to try and retain much of that speed but to keep it on a plane, making tracking that bit easier when aiming.

Maybe that will work, maybe it won’t, the closed alpha and closed beta will help answer those questions. I know that is something that will bother some of our existing fans but I don’t think it ruins the essence of what they’d like to play and it certainly doesn’t remove the possibility of us still finding ways to add skillful movement of other types.

These are the reasons DB can’t just be a re-skin of and older title, nor do we want it to be, but it should still be possible to find something that is equally fun and compelling for those fans.

Now I should really do some work and stop posting :D[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your time here Anti. Really do appreciate what I’m reading in this thread. It really sheds a light an gives a uplifting positive light in the drudges of Alpha testing :slight_smile: - Like ImageOmega said, I can’t agree more how much I enjoy your transparency on subjects an communicating with us.

(Ashog) #135

Anti, well, if you can’t help keeping the sprint jump and strafe jump like they are now in the game due to new players reasons, at least please improve the strafe and backpedal accelleration!

(Kl3ppy) #136

Anti, its really nice that you take your time and answer our questions. I just hope we wont be able to make a thread like this when the game is final.

(Anti) #137

Well, from the very next post in that thread:

Sometimes direction changes, sometimes you get less time, sometimes technical issues you didn’t expect make something harder to do, sometimes opinion changes about what is best for the game. During development stuff is always at risk until it’s done and DB has that risk just like every game does. They aren’t lies, i’m sure Rahdo had every intention that we’d do all those things.

All I can say is that we’re trying our hardest this time to ensure we work with the community on making this game and focusing our efforts on the features they care about. Hopefully you folks can see from a lot of the tweaks we’ve made already that we’re acting on a fair amount of that feedback and I also hope, where we’re maybe not doing exactly what you guys think we should, that we are making that clear to you why.

I think that is all we can do at these early stages of development :slight_smile:

(Kl3ppy) #138

I have high hopes that you guys learned a lot from your former game wins/fails otherwise I wouldnt give you my money in such a early stage of the game :wink:
And as long as you communicate with the community all is fine. And tbh I like the way you guys work on DB. Like with the medpack, you introduce something that wasnt a part/function of former games SD made. But the alpha allowes you to get feedback from real gamers (no offence at all programmers and the stuff, but you dont play the games like we do :wink: ) on changes and new mechanics. If you keep this process up, you will have a very good game at the end. Also the idea to have a closer look at the mods made for previous games is awesome because mods mostly “fix” something that isnt really broken but makes the game more enjoyable/competition able.