My personal take on how to fix Shotguns

(watsyurdeal) #1
  1. Remove Damage Fall off from them

Why? Because shotguns already have damage modifiers for limbs and head, and the fact it uses pellets rather than a single solid shot, means that there’s no chance all of the damage will be transferred directly to the target.

It makes sense for there to simply just not be any fall off, the spread will take care of that.

  1. Lower the damage

Seeing as how meatshots (all pellets hit the body) are the name of the game with shotguns, I figure the best fix here, is after removing fall off to lower the damage.

This is in two parts, one is lowering the damage number itself, then there is lowering the number of pellets. If you look at the shotgun patterns, you’ll see there is a center pellet, then there are 2 others sets of pellets. These pellets form a shape, in this case, you’ll see a pentagon.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/541924293709710203/73455A0E74A31415A9F74A86627968C82423609B/

So, for shotguns that would fire a 9 pellet spread, you’d see a diamond or square, for a 13 pellet spread, it’d be a hexagon. So with that in mind, we should change the damage amounts, and change the number of pellets for each shotgun to fit their roles.

  1. Tighten the spread, so it’s the same for ALL shotguns.

In conjunction with number 2, if we make the spread the same for all of the shotguns, the only major differences between them would be damage, pellet count, clip size, and rate of fire.

These things combined would allow all of the shotguns to be drastically different from each other, but also allow them be buffed and changed as needed until they are viable alternatives.

What do you guys think of this approach?

(MisterBadmin) #2

I respectfully disagree with removing damage falloff on shotguns. I remember when shotguns were sniper rifles, those were dark days.

I absolutely want to see the damage per shot of shotguns reduced drastically. Every shotgun has the potential to 2 shot a Fragger with meatshots. That is way too low TTK, especially in a game about tracking and sustained fights. [PLEASE NOTE: Numbers not intended to be actually values for balance, just used to illustrate.] Halving the damage per pellet (yes, I know Ahnuhld does 7 damage, spitballing here) and increasing the pump speed (time to ready another round) by ~70% (reduce time from about .5s to .2s) would be my initial instinct to bring shotguns more into line with the rest of the arsenal.

I’d be fine with a tighter spread, other than my previously voiced concerned over 12-pellet-sniper-rifles, but I think there’s a more interesting way to take it. Shotguns can have chokes to tighten spread, but mercs live in 2021, so let’s get some crazy stuff going. I’m thinking of a linear-type spread pattern. (Will fire up PS to illustrate after posting).
EDIT: Here be my attempt. (Yes, I borrowed the screen above, thanks for that.)
http://i.imgur.com/btB2szJ.png

Overall, I could live with this approach, but it seems to make it more of a case of homogenized weapons. There’s nothing wrong with it, but I like stark differences in my weapons.

(terminal) #3

Having no damage fall off will mean we will be able to snipe with the shotguns. “the spread will take care of that” No it won’t, since you also suggested to have a tighter spread on these shotguns.
Also, assuming there IS damage fall off; making shotguns different based on their damage and clip size instead of their range will just result in people picking the shotgun that deals the most damage.

(watsyurdeal) #4

[quote=“terminal;188681”]Having no damage fall off will mean we will be able to snipe with the shotguns. “the spread will take care of that” No it won’t, since you also suggested to have a tighter spread on these shotguns.
Also, assuming there IS damage fall off; making shotguns different based on their damage and clip size instead of their range will just result in people picking the shotgun that deals the most damage.

[/quote]

You do realize my point don’t you???

1 shot that does 40 damage, vs 9 pellets that do 9 damage, the 40 damage per shot will be better. No matter what the range, cause it’s CONSISTENT

A Shotgun is not consistent, those pellets each do a small amount of damage, and could easily miss, or hit the limbs instead of dead center. So, yes, it WOULD take care of it, because a single shot is always going to be more accurate, you’re lucky to get even half of those pellets to hit what you point at due to how much they spread out.

(Dawnlazy) #5

Disagree with just no damage falloff at all but agree on the concept of less damage, more range. They need to not be OP up close but also not useless from range.

(inscrutableShow) #6

I’m gonna burst in here with my technical knowledge and then leave again.

So, I haven’t formed an opinion on your suggestion yet, but your idea to buff the pump speed of the shotguns isn’t realistic. (Yeah, I know it’s a game. This is too unrealistic to escape my notice.) You suggested lowering the pump speed to .2 seconds, from the current .5. Have you ever pumped a shotgun IRL? The fact that the mercs do it in half a second consistently in literally a miracle. Lowering it to .2 seconds would make Proxy, Fletcher, and Aura insanely strong (in the physical sense). Also, making the fire rate of shotguns similar to other guns would remove some of their uniqueness.

(BananaSlug) #7

soo basically slug shells ? but taking away range would make them sniper shotguns, just give them more range less damage, less spread, maybe a little more fire rate, soo it wont be random one shoot but few well aimed shoots,

something that i would live to see is when you jump your pellets go in random plase, not just bigger spread because it makes them easier to hit, if you jump spread is the same but goes in random place

(Dysfnal) #8

I would make the hollunds like the current ahnuld, the Remburg like the current hollunds, and give the ahnuld less spread and less damage.

(Eox) #9

No falloff ? I don’t know. But giving to shotguns less damage but more range seems to be a good idea IMO. Hopefully it would make shotguns less frustrating to play with and against.

(watsyurdeal) #10

Think about how shotguns work, do you really think 100% of those pellets are going to hit in anything BUT close range? And not only that but headshots, they only do 2x damage, so if it’s 8, that means a single pellet will do 16 damage.

This is why it makes sense to change the falloff, you will never hit the enemy with all of the pellets from afar.

(ethicalVeneer) #11

[quote=“inscrutableShow;189251”]I’m gonna burst in here with my technical knowledge and then leave again.

So, I haven’t formed an opinion on your suggestion yet, but your idea to buff the pump speed of the shotguns isn’t realistic. (Yeah, I know it’s a game. This is too unrealistic to escape my notice.) You suggested lowering the pump speed to .2 seconds, from the current .5. Have you ever pumped a shotgun IRL? The fact that the mercs do it in half a second consistently in literally a miracle. Lowering it to .2 seconds would make Proxy, Fletcher, and Aura insanely strong (in the physical sense). Also, making the fire rate of shotguns similar to other guns would remove some of their uniqueness.[/quote]

Also Rihno,but that’s to be expected since dude’s pretty muscular.

(PleasantWheat) #12

@ethicalVeneer Finally someone else who acknowledges that rhino is actually a tank ass mofo and not a tub o lard

(ProfPlump) #13

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;30767”]1. Remove Damage Fall off from them

Why? Because shotguns already have damage modifiers for limbs and head, and the fact it uses pellets rather than a single solid shot, means that there’s no chance all of the damage will be transferred directly to the target.

It makes sense for there to simply just not be any fall off, the spread will take care of that.

  1. Lower the damage

Seeing as how meatshots (all pellets hit the body) are the name of the game with shotguns, I figure the best fix here, is after removing fall off to lower the damage.

This is in two parts, one is lowering the damage number itself, then there is lowering the number of pellets. If you look at the shotgun patterns, you’ll see there is a center pellet, then there are 2 others sets of pellets. These pellets form a shape, in this case, you’ll see a pentagon.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/541924293709710203/73455A0E74A31415A9F74A86627968C82423609B/

So, for shotguns that would fire a 9 pellet spread, you’d see a diamond or square, for a 13 pellet spread, it’d be a hexagon. So with that in mind, we should change the damage amounts, and change the number of pellets for each shotgun to fit their roles.

  1. Tighten the spread, so it’s the same for ALL shotguns.

In conjunction with number 2, if we make the spread the same for all of the shotguns, the only major differences between them would be damage, pellet count, clip size, and rate of fire.

These things combined would allow all of the shotguns to be drastically different from each other, but also allow them be buffed and changed as needed until they are viable alternatives.

What do you guys think of this approach?[/quote]

The shotguns should not ever have their damage reduced. If they can’t deal the massive damage in split seconds, then they’re worthless. If you want to ‘balance’ that DPS nerf by improving firerate, then you’re only making them into a less versatile SMG.

(hoyes) #14

I understand the niche that shotguns fit in to, but in a game were firefights rely on headshots, teo quick shots to the body to kill someone quite frankly imo takes zero skill. Sure they are useless at range, but most of the firefights u have are in this rrgion.Nerf damage decrease spread to make people go for headshots.

(hoyes) #15

I meant to say most firefights are in close quarters.

(LifeupOmega) #16

Fix them? Remove them. Simple. The way they interact with movement mechanics in Dirty Bomb tends to mean that any player can just jump into you and kill you due to the buffed up firing rates they’ve gotten over the past year. It’s not fun to fight in the slightest, there’s no skilled gunplay involved, you just bounce around into each person, two shots max, move on. I’ve done it myself, it’s not even slightly engaging to do, and it doesn’t take any actual effort to keep on target if you have basic FPS skills.

God, you’d at least expect them to reward headshots, but if you go for them you’re just doing less damage than going for an upper torso to neck shot, which is stupid when this game constantly hammers aiming for the head as a thing. Every other gun type in the game rewards you for learning how to track and hit the head, except shotguns.

Nothing else in this game makes me as ticked off as these pointless additions that only serve to bridge gaps between shit and decent players. Crutches aren’t a good thing, and when this game was apparently about the unique gunplay, shotguns throw that out the window and ruin every single game.

(ProfPlump) #17

[quote=“LifeupOmega;194507”]Fix them? Remove them. Simple. The way they interact with movement mechanics in Dirty Bomb tends to mean that any player can just jump into you and kill you due to the buffed up firing rates they’ve gotten over the past year. It’s not fun to fight in the slightest, there’s no skilled gunplay involved, you just bounce around into each person, two shots max, move on. I’ve done it myself, it’s not even slightly engaging to do, and it doesn’t take any actual effort to keep on target if you have basic FPS skills.

God, you’d at least expect them to reward headshots, but if you go for them you’re just doing less damage than going for an upper torso to neck shot, which is stupid when this game constantly hammers aiming for the head as a thing. Every other gun type in the game rewards you for learning how to track and hit the head, except shotguns.

Nothing else in this game makes me as ticked off as these pointless additions that only serve to bridge gaps between @$!# and decent players. Crutches aren’t a good thing, and when this game was apparently about the unique gunplay, shotguns throw that out the window and ruin every single game.[/quote]

Shotguns are the weapons that make the most out of the movement system - their requirement to get into close range, and their (general) high movement speed of the mercs that carry those shotguns, allows them to really take advantage and have a lot of fun from the long jumps, wall jumps and double jumps in this game. Removing them from the game would be taking away some of the most unique and satisfying gameplay there is in this game.

And, idk if you’ve noticed, but pretty much nobody uses shotguns in competitive tournaments - Auras always use the Blishlok, as do Fletchers. Proxies always use the Hochfir (although I have seen one using the Remburg before, but only once). Rhinos obviously don’t have a choice, but most of their kills come from the minigun rather than his primary or secondary. This clearly proves that shotguns are too difficult to maintain consistency with, and are therefore some of the MOST skilled weapons in the game - it’s FAR easier to keep a consistent ability with SMGs than with the shotguns.

And, as I’m sure you’ve been told a thousand times, if you’re allowing your opponent to get up in your face with a shotgun, then YOU’ve made the mistake. Keep them at medium range and they fall apart (which is also why nobody uses them in competitive - they’re too easy to counter on most maps).

(ProfPlump) #18

Most firefights are in close quarters…? No. It’s a fair portion, sure, but it’s not MOST of it. Most of the action occurs in medium range, which is why guns like the M4 were always picked over the Timik (since it has better ranged accuracy, despite less close combat efficiency).

(Szakalot) #19

Most firefights are in close quarters…? No. It’s a fair portion, sure, but it’s not MOST of it. Most of the action occurs in medium range, which is why guns like the M4 were always picked over the Timik (since it has better ranged accuracy, despite less close combat efficiency).[/quote]

to be fair, if what people play is 7v7 and 8v8 then more and more fights become close quarters. Just the natural state of chaos and the high ttk.

In a 5v5 comp, shotguns are laughably weak against people who know how to counter them. setup a crossfire and enjoy proxies trying to walljump towards you helplessly, as they are taking fire. Here and there there will be good spots for shotties, but smaller teams allows opponents to abuse other pathways, whereas in 8v8 the spam generally forces players to distribute equally across all chokes.

(Equanimity) #20

Most firefights are in close quarters…? No. It’s a fair portion, sure, but it’s not MOST of it. Most of the action occurs in medium range, which is why guns like the M4 were always picked over the Timik (since it has better ranged accuracy, despite less close combat efficiency).[/quote]

to be fair, if what people play is 7v7 and 8v8 then more and more fights become close quarters. Just the natural state of chaos and the high ttk.

In a 5v5 comp, shotguns are laughably weak against people who know how to counter them. setup a crossfire and enjoy proxies trying to walljump towards you helplessly, as they are taking fire. Here and there there will be good spots for shotties, but smaller teams allows opponents to abuse other pathways, whereas in 8v8 the spam generally forces players to distribute equally across all chokes.[/quote]

Agreed. It’s essentially a non-issue in competitive play.