My long video of feedback... [Version 2]

(rookie1) #21

I try to understand what exactly you would like .
The game has different mercs looks ,speed ,weaponery, ablities ,they all have the movements potential (wall jump ,long jump)
its a FPS based with differents objectives
Agree all these ^^ are in progress .

I’d like to see full commital to the merc based system, make them much more unique and have a lot more complimentary mechanics to that concept. Integrate the mercs and their abilities into the map design.

How ? ^^ with other new movements .? or make movements combo like : fullspeed,crouch, jump for long jump ?
Beside walking ,running ,jumping different ways there is other generic movements that I dont see a real benefit to bring (rolling ,sliding ,crouch behind the walls etc…) and now we see a new standard …Jet packing …Lots of fun but now fall in the generic dept …they all have it or will in many incoming games .
There is so much you can ask to a character to do, that mimic humans movements and I think games did about it all .
And bringing them in DB will just bring commentary like …this game offer nothing new …its all so generic !.
The only movement I could see is a kind o swing cord (spiderman like) that with skill tactics could move you around the map in different way and mb with combo with the wall jumping could make something very skilly and different ,and as mentioned before climbing trees for the fun of it and seeing ppl get shoot and rag down as they fell from the tree …Funny scene ! :slight_smile:

What else SD can do ?
Sure there is all the rest they says they working on (spawn, maps,balance,objectives,routes,skins,performance ,ect )
Apart these ^^ What else ??

(chippy) #22

It would be interesting to see how the longjump can be varied to different mercs (type of mercs?). The lighter mercs might not have a long jump, but instead can use boxes and crates to get something like a “one-and-two-and-kickoff-the-wall” jump instead. The “heavy” mercs could perhaps be able to gain a small speed boost down hill and from that get a longer jump.

Not sure how practical, if even, these two examples would be but I would definately be interesting in seeing something like this.

(k0k0nat) #23

At this point the highlight of the game experience is shooting your gun at the other guy, which isn’t offering anything special.

Jop. Variety of usefull mercs and missing class-based objectives are a big issue.
Will write my feedback on this soon.

Capture zones are a big mistake imo.

(INF3RN0) #24

It’s under the assumption that DB wants to be a merc focused FPS of course. I think it needs to commit to it fully to truly stand out and make its mark. Important to note that I care about skill based game play, but I think that can still be entirely maintainable as a core attribute to win even in a moba styled FPS.

Just a random list of things that I think would boost that appeal;

  1. Situational based counter-ability sub-meta
  2. More opportunity for intuitive cross-merc cooperative ability combos
  3. Additional abilities for all mercs and maybe team passives
  4. Alternative firing modes/tool uses
  5. More unique skill based weapon types
  6. More unique movement maneuvers per body type with specific map routes/trick paths to compliment
  7. Set timer based “Ultimates” (less damage oriented)
  8. Unique merc archetype specific side objs and obj bonuses
(Scarhand) #25

I disagree Inferno. You are telling them to lose simplicity where it counts (and they already have simplicity currently where it doesn’t)
If you read my previous post, I kind of said that this game NEEDs pub. Otherwise they will not be able to make any money from this game. Those first suggestions are bad for pub.

If you have merc abilities tailored to compliment or counter those of other mercs, pub is just a luck of the draw, more than before even. Even scrims will become luck of the draw because you can’t see other teams mercs and you have to hope they didn’t get ones that are good counters for yours. A luck of the draw, not skill. And if you knew enough to be able to counter the other teams mercs, you would have constant switching until the game finally locks them into place, and may not get to even use those synergies that were carefully worked on.

Passives are the same. They are a major PAIN to balance. And even more pain when the game goes public and isn’t played my mostly higher-skilled players and has to be significantly re-done. You don’t have to make mercs super complex. You get whining about being both overpowered and under-powered this way. “Please nerf sawbones, WAY OP” and at the same time “sawbones is useless, why is he so bad?”. No one will want to play the game. To be competitive, you have to keep it balance-able; mercs are pretty good in their complexity at the moment.

The only way you can develop mercs to the point you want is to have very few of them. And that is the opposite of what SD wants.

(rookie1) #26

Scarhand you havegood arguementsand INF3RN0 has good sugestions in that list can this be merge some how ?
Can the game be Newbies friendly and still pro appealing ? …Like you (Scarhand) suggested have the Newbies something to do usefull and fun so the two could live together and having a good time

(PixelTwitch) #27

[QUOTE=rookie1;504087]Scarhand you havegood arguementsand INF3RN0 has good sugestions in that list can this be merge some how ?
Can the game be Newbies friendly and still pro appealing ? …Like you (Scarhand) suggested have the Newbies something to do usefull and fun so the two could live together and having a good time[/QUOTE]

Actually the problem is the “pro” community…

Most of the core gamers here on the forums and currently regularly playing Dirty Bomb are decent players and also pretty old school. Gaming concepts have changed over the years and some of the old school guys still seem to believe that a game using these old school fundamentals will work well today. However, that is not the only issue. It seems the community is blindly pushing for a high skill ceiling because for the most part they believe they are much better then what they actually are. Making the game faster and reducing the recoil does not make the game more skilled… It does nothing but make the game more focused towards a certain skill set (basically people with good Tracking aim). All that is currently happening is that the minimum skill requirements are rising but the skill ceiling is staying pretty stuck in this awkward place.

The more you raise that minimum skill requirement the more frustrating the casual players are going to find it… The more frustrating they find it the less likely they are to play it… the less likely they are to play it the less likely they are to follow/watch it… The less it is followed/watched the less money will get pumped into the competitive scene… the less money that is pumped into the competitive scene the quicker the competitive scene dies… and when the core player base is competitive players you basically end up with a dead game.

not only this but we need to avoid this “one rule for pub/matchmaking” and “one rule for competitive/esports” because all this does is separate the player base and while has little effect on the public/casual player base it will have a massive negative effect on competitive. Over the years it has been proven that the closer the core game is to the competitive game, the more successful it has been in eSports.

The reliance on Tracking Aim either needs to be reduced OR give us viable alternatives.
Increase the number of viable tactics, diversity in the mercs and customisation.

Right now… The game is skating on very thin ice.

(Mangosteez) #28

Over the years I’ve found that UE3 games are their smoothest at 60 and slightly above. Anymore that that and you are asking for trouble. They do definitely need to optimize a bit more, Turning left and right shouldn’t be decreasing your fps. Frankly I’ve only played at 120hz a few times at my friends house and yes its nice, but this whole 60 fps is now the knew 30 is ridic. Now 144 is the new 120 and 120 is now unbearable. The PC master race thing is becoming more and more apparent to me. Now don’t take this personal because im just ranting a bit.

(PixelTwitch) #29

Honestly its like going to watch an old VHS tape for a movie you loved right after watching it on Blue Ray.

The difference is huge… Believe me when I say that I was a none believer for the longest time but while I agree that when I first got 144hz I was like… blaaa TOSH! means nothing! after I started going back to 60fps (and titanfall for example) I really started to struggle. all of a sudden I notice every single frame of 60 fps and you can notice the delay of each frame. I really wish that I never ever went to 120hz+ because doing so for so long has made 60fps unplayable for me. Its both down to “feel” (reduced latency) and visually it comes down to noticing the gaps between each frame… Also playing a 60fps game on a 120hz monitor just looks awful. I will try plugging in a 60hz monitor to see if it feels any better. Its nothing about “master race” though mate.

(INF3RN0) #30

[QUOTE=Scarhand;504084]

I disagree Inferno. You are telling them to lose simplicity where it counts (and they already have simplicity currently where it doesn’t)[/QUOTE]

Your skepticism is highly theoretical and cynical tbh, though none of these ideas are new here. I am a strong advocate for pub first, comp later. I’m thinking more in terms of a ranked ladder pubber myself, or at least someone who would like to play the game for more than a few weeks. The thing is that once the pub is satisfied on a basic level of comfort, the game needs to offer some real progression and incentive to maintain that attention. That is what LoL did to the moba genre; you create a comfortable and welcoming environment for the newcomer, but you encourage progressive learning rather than enforcing hard limits on depth. Look at the difference in how a game of LoL, Dota, SC2, CSGO, etc all play at different skill levels, yet none are less functional or less fun by comparison.

The concept is that at the core the basics of aim, movement, and straight forward teamwork contribute most to a win, very simple. The addition of other variables only begin to gain significance once players have progressed into the higher levels of mastery where the wins are achieved in the finite details, which will be a reality with match making. In that sense there would rarely be a circumstance that anything you might consider to be remotely ‘luck based’ would ever outweigh that which was skill based.

To be clear, the idea of a counter-ability sub-meta is to keep players in control and allow for more varied game dynamics. These would realistically be applicable to multiple uses like some of what we already have, ex. explosives dispelling smoke. I’d like to see similar opportunities across the board, which would make ability execution less automated/luck based and encourage more highly developed strategies. The issue I might argue against with is that could appear to render abilities completely negligible, to which I might counter with another idea like doubling or tripling the c/d when used as a counter or even having its own counter-use c/d. Abilities are mostly complimentary to the core skill sets anyway, but in a highly communicative strategical environment they can make all the difference. The rest of the stuff is geared toward adding to the opportunity for deeper strategical content for the sake of breaking the monotony of game play. The easiest/safest alternative would be to create a game with no risks where we run straight at each other with identical zero spread guns and have the most skill based and most boring game ever created.

The overall point is that the game feels overly limiting in terms of what you can do once you’ve mastered the basics, which isn’t helping anyone. I want the game to be easy to learn and enjoy at a basic level, but I also want to be given the opportunity to move beyond that both individually and within a team. Not to mention anything that helps to break the highly repetitive experience that is DB. There’s nothing really interesting happening in the game even among the higher level competitive players because it doesn’t exist yet or we’re too busy theorizing why it’s too hard to make it work to even try.

(titan) #31

good video I watched the whole thing and agree with most of it although I don’t think it can be understated just how bad the maps are right now.
In terms of the game being tracking skill only yeeeee its kinda true, not rly sure what the solution is. No skill based movement (which im ok with i luv strafe jumping but lets be real its not viable anymore) and no weapon variety (ie you have 1 primary weapon). What did rtcw and et do to not be as boring as dirtybomb i can barely remember lol. It ain’t rose tinted glasses they were just vastly better games than this the only thing i can think of is the map design given that this game has no good maps right now.

(Scarhand) #32

I’m not saying the game should just be pure run and gun at all. I know it needs to be more than basic. But you have to do it correctly. Take for example a good thing to add (and sounds like it will be), using wall jumps or long jumps to get to certain areas of the map, or to get around more quickly. It is something you learn and can add more depth. The good thing about it is, it doesn’t lead to terrible balance issues if it is done right. There are lots of things that are too simple and need to be improved to be more dynamic and have a learning curve.

Now making merc abilities complex does add those balance issues. In some cases, impossible to balance issues. Adding counter abilities and passives are nearly impossible to balance. Entirely new creative abilities are very possible to balance. Especially the core gunplay mechanics need to be simple. Nothing worse than having DB become one of those FPS games that tries to do way more than it can in the wrong places and entirely crashes because of it. Progression is very important, but done wrong it hurts the game very badly.

(Erkin31) #33

It does nothing but make the game more focused towards a certain skill set (basically people with good Tracking aim

It’s what I search in a Splash Damage FPS. You seem to want a classical clone of AAA FPS (in the gameplay) because this is the kind of FPS which have a lot of gamers.
Simplify a game to attract the most of players is for me the most terrible thing which happen to a game. And I really doubt that a poor game without a good learning curve could be in the top of esport.

SD said that they want to make a fast paced FPS with DB. Dexterity was always the core element of fast FPS, you can’t wait from a fast paced FPS the same things than a CS.

Mangosteez: When you are used to play at 120 fps on a 120hz, it’s just really uncomfortable to play at 60 fps.

Pixel compare this to VHS/blueray, me, I compare this to a big change of TV size.
When I replaced my old tiny TV by a big TV, I was like “ok, it’s better, but not a revolution”.
When my big tv was dead and I should go back on my old TV, it was simply impossible for me : “How was it possible that I watch movies on this tv !?”

I will try plugging in a 60hz monitor to see if it feels any better

Some games block my hz to 60, the result is annoying. The benefit of 120/144hz is still present even if your game runs at 60 fps.
Even on Windows, I see differences between 60/120hz.

(stealth6) #34

[QUOTE=Erkin31;504108]It’s what I search in a Splash Damage FPS. You seem to want a classical clone of AAA FPS (in the gameplay) because this is the kind of FPS which have a lot of gamers.
Simplify a game to attract the most of players is for me the most terrible thing which happen to a game. And I really doubt that a poor game without a good learning curve could be in the top of esport.

SD said that they want to make a fast paced FPS with DB. Dexterity was always the core element of fast FPS, you can’t wait from a fast paced FPS the same things than a CS.[/QUOTE]

He said he wants more things to diversify the required skills in DB, like positioning & movement instead of keeping the sole focus on head tracking. These were present in previous titles.

(Humate) #35

And how do you think its coming along?

Havent played the updated version of whitechapel yet, it looks pretty interesting.
Also interested in the long jump, but from what Ive read so far it hasn’t been used that often.
Sad that Kira isnt in the rotation. /cough

(Sun_Sheng) #36

I’m still watching the video and in general i’m liking the things you’re saying …well thought out opinions and such rather than just ranting etc…but…

I have to disagree on the skill thing in relation to aim. On a good day i’d class myself as low/mid. I’ve been gaming since Pong and have a lot of experience, but age and some time off have me playing not as good as I used to. In that context i’d probably be classed as one of the low players and i’m happy with that, but the reason I can’t hit a barn door sometimes, is not down to the high skill requirement, it’s down to the random nature of the aim. I can ignore firefights in general and losing a few of those, **** happens, but when I get the drop on someone, i’m behind them, they can’t see me, I open up on them and I know damned well my crosshair is on their head or shoulders and I get no hit sounds, try to adjust, and they turn around and take me out with body shots, something isn’t right and it’s not my aim. It’s something in the game or the lag comp, or both

(Stinger) #37

He just wants another quake. Alll previous SD titles were focused on adadad spam and tracking heads so I dont know what required skills are you talking about. What wide range of required skills do other big FPS games have? In most cases its just point and click aim and no movement skills at all.

(Raviolay) #38

I disagree that say a solider should win over say a medic by default, however I do for the most part think you are on the money. The only other thing I disagree on is speed, as this game feels slower than Call of Duty BO2 at 90 FOV unless you play Dirty Bomb at 120 FOV. As for the help up I think that could be addressed by making it 1.5 or 2 seconds, you only get back up with 2 HP, and you self regen to only 20% of your max HP. Then requiring a medic for healing back up to full health, I would also make medic revival via defib at 100% HP by default. In fact I would go on to make HP regen by default, only regen to 50% of your damage taken. This in my eyes would make medics very important, while still giving a reason for this help up being in the game at all. Hell you could even make some mercs have higher self regen and regen speed than others, giving for even more diversity to the game.

(PixelTwitch) #39

I mention what Quake has in the video.
UT has just as many aspects if not more with the shield gun and dodge.
Counter Strike has learning recoil patterns, economy and hard strats.
Battlefield has prediction via the bullet velocity.
Titanfall has movement and mechs.
Shootmania has movement, prediction and extreme aim.
Tribes has movement, prediction and tracking.

And please… Lets not be silly and call adadad skill… That would be like calling standing still to shoot in CS a skill…

(Erkin31) #40

If you call BF prediction skill (ahah) we can easily call adadad skill. Moving while tracking is a skilled thing, but of course less than the movements or the prediction of Tribes.
But I would be happy to see some more complex elements. On ET/ETQW we had straff-jump and other tricks. I would like that they improve the long jump to be able to use it with more freedom.

Anyway, I’m agree with the “middle of the road” problem explained in your video. They want to please the wider audience, the risk is that each category of players doesn’t find what they really want in the game.