My ideas for a true realism FPS game


(ouroboro) #1

Nothing here is to suggest that I dislike unrealistic games. My personal favorite game is Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, which is by any definition an “arcade” game. But since I’ve always wanted to try a truly realistic FPS game, but have been disappointed with everything I’ve seen so far, I thought I’d write down my thoughts on the topic.

Nearly every “realistic” shooter has been forced to compromise for the sake of gameplay. But I believe that if a truly realistic game was made, the players would be able to adapt, just as real armies adapt to the different strengths/weaknesses of their enemies. So, here are a few ideas which I believe are mandatory for a truly realistic shooter.

  1. No HUD, and the issue of weapon damage.

A realistic game should have no heads up display (HUD), or an extremely limited one at most. There is no need for an ammo counter if you know how much you started with. Just as the soldier in a real war keeps track of his ammo, the gamer can as well. However, in real life (RL) when a soldier grabs a fresh clip, he also gets a tactile update of his overall ammo count (he can “feel” that he has 3 magazines left). Since we can’t feel the game world, a magazine counter may seem acceptable. Then again, a soldier in RL would likely lose track of his ammo in a seriously heated battle, and may simply run out and be forced to use a backup weapon or scavenge for one. So, I believe a realistic game should require the player to keep track of his ammunition status by memory, and those with the coolest heads would be able to keep track better than others, and thus be able to make better decisions based on that information.

As for health status, again, I can’t feel how healthy I am in the game, so I may think a HUD item would make sense. On the other hand, in a realistic shooter we probably don’t want to base a life on the common “100 health points”. Rather, we should say that being shot in a particular place has a certain incapacitating effect, and reflect that in our ability to continue fighting when hit. If I am shot in the leg - by any caliber round - I am likely to be only able to limp along from that point forward. No amount of battlefield medical care is going to eliminate that limp in the short term. It may stop me from bleeding to death, but I will now be a much slower soldier for the rest of the round. If I am shot in the head, I am dead. While it is of course possible to survive a headshot, we must make certain generalizations for the sake of the game. A headshot from any bullet must be fatal, unless we’re wearing an armored helmet. In which case, we would still be totally unable to continue fighting due to severe concussion. We would be on the wounded list for the rest of the round. And since a realism game would not have respawning, that would be the same as being dead. Therefore, unless our game has some kind of persistent campaign mode which we continue in as long as we are alive, a headshot should be considered game-ending for the recipient.

This relates to the HUD because the extent of our wounds should be obvious by our ability to move and fight. But when do you finally die? When you recieve a fatal wound, which would be determined by the game developer. Until then, you will simply become more and more incapacitated until you can no longer function, in which case you will likely be killed soon anyway. All this reflects RL as much as possible, and eliminates the need for a “health meter”. You simply fight until you are killed or the round ends. Period.

Another thing to consider is bleeding. When shot, bleeding would of course be a problem. While some games such as Urban Terror (UrT) have implemented this, I’m not sure how important it really is for a realistic game. Of course there is a risk of bleeding to death in RL, but in the limited timeframe of a game round, the more immediate problem of losing the use of that limb would be more important. Also, the UrT system implies that a gunshot wound is simply a problem of bleeding, and when the bleeding is stopped, the problem is gone. This is of course not realistic. I would argue that bleeding and mending of wounds in a game is not as realistic as it may at first seem. It is much more important to reflect the degree of incapacitation that a wound would give the player, than to simply slow them down until they are able to recieve medical attention, then continue as if they were never shot.

  1. No crosshair.

This is along the same lines as the HUD, and should be obvious. There are no crosshairs floating in front of us in RL. Just as I can shoot from the hip in RL, I can do so in game. But I can’t expect to hit anything with any kind of accuracy. Shooting from the hip should be worthless except as a means of scaring the enemy into keeping their heads down while I sprint from one piece of cover to the next. It should be suppressive, but not effective.

  1. Iron sights.

These are mandatory. Without a crosshair, we need a way to aim. Iron sights are realistic and therefore desireable. What kind of iron sights is also important. I believe that model-based iron sights are far superior to the shader-based variety. An example of model-based sights would be Call of Duty (CoD). An example of shader-based would be America’s Army (AA). With model-based sights, the actual weapon model is lifted up in front of the line of sight until the weapons sights are aligned. In shader-based sighting, a two dimensional overlay is applied to the screen to simulate the sight picture, often with some kind of artificial blurring effect to simulate depth. Shader-based sights are obviously inferior and should not be used.

An example of where games like CoD went wrong, however, is in the common “zooming” effect which is applied when sights are raised. Anyone who has fired a weapon knows that the world does not magically zoom in when you take aim. Even if you haven’t fired a gun, simply raise your hands in front of your face and see if distant objects get bigger. Of course they don’t, any more than looking through a paper-towel roll works as a telescope. This common game “feature” must not be used in a realistic game. This also relates to the next item…

  1. Fixed field of view.

Just as I cannot alter my field of view (FOV) in RL, we shouldn’t allow players to adjust theirs in a realistic game. What that locked FOV should be is another matter. On a flat screen, it’s hard to duplicate reality. I can see perhaps 180 degrees of periphery in RL, but the farther I get from my line of sight, the blurrier things become. If this could be simulated in-game, that would be great. If not, I’d suggest the common 90 degrees would be a good starting point.

  1. Eliminate “tweaking”.

Every game has certain settings which can be personalized for the sake of performance. This is mandatory, but those settings must be kept in check. Players should not be allowed to remove anything from the screen, such as their weapon model. Performance tweaks should be based on the dumbing down of textures and geometry, not on the elimination of items or weather effects. Nothing says that a realistic game has to “look” real. That’s where things have been going lately, but it’s the wrong approach. Realism should relate to gameplay, not textures. Allow players to eliminate eye-candy without eliminating core aspects of the game or gaining an advantage through tweaks.

  1. Hit detection.

Many games, such as Quake III: Arena (Q3), use a simple bounding box to detect a hit, with the weapon/projectile determining the amount of damage recieved. In a realistic game, we need some way to detect wounds on different body parts. A hitbox system along the lines of Counter-Strike (CS, based on the Half-Life engine, HL) would be sufficient. We need to know if a player is hit in the head, torso, leg, or arm. That would be the minimum desireable level of differentiation. Anything more complex would allow more precise hit detection, at the price of more complex gamecode and likely lower performance. If we were to use an engine with a less complex hit detection system, such as Enemy Territory (ET), we would have to use some kind of randomization to determine how damaging a “bodyshot” was. ET uses a body box and a head box. Since we can’t know where on the body a hit was scored, we’d have to randomize it (chest, leg, or arm). Such a system could work, but would be less realistic. Engine choice would be a decision made on several criteria, so realism may be more or less depending on that choice.

  1. Movement while aiming.

In RL, it is virtually impossible to maintain any kind of accuracy while moving at anything more than a very slow walk. So must it be in a realistic game. Movement should penalize aim to such a degree that is is only done in a suppressive situation as mentioned in the crosshair section. In order to have any real chance at hitting a man-sized target in RL, one must stop, take aim, control breathing, and fire. If one misses, one must repeat all those steps, since recoil will have thrown the shooter completely off target. Making use of some kind of support would make the process easier. So, kneeling should decrease the instability problems, since it would imply using the knee and elbow as support. Notice I said decrease instability, not increase accuracy. Accuracy should be determined by the ability of the player to compensate for sway - by using mouse control - as well as by the ballistics of the weapon being fired. Simply crouching or proning should not make a given firearm more accurate. It should only reduce the stability problems (represented in-game by “sway”) which must be overcome by the shooter.

  1. Realistic weapons.

This doesn’t necessarily mean no laser guns. If the game is set in the distant future, what is real and what isn’t must be determined by the developer. But he/she should determine which futuristic weapons would be common on the field of battle. In the case of modern-day or historical games, we can look at reality. Many (most) games tend to include weapon choices which allow a new player to survive among veterans. An example is the panzerfaust in ET. While it is certainly a valuable weapon requiring skill to be used properly, in the hands of a newbie it represents a chance to get some kills. If ET only had submachineguns, a new player would be dominated and overwhelmed. The system works great as intended for ET and most other games. The problem from a realistic standpoint is that the panzerfaust was not used as a means to kill footsoldiers. So a realistic game must take reality into account. In the case of WWII, history tells us that the M1 Garand was the standard-issue firearm for American troops. Therefore, in a realistic WWII game, that must be the most common weapon for the American team, as an example. If such a game were to include tanks and other vehicles, the panzerfaust and bazooka would be obvious choices as a means of disabling those vehicles. But the developer of a realistic game would have to somehow control the ability of players to use those weapons against other footsoldiers. While there must surely be a story out there of someone doing such a thing in WWII, it would have been an absolutely last-ditch act, and would have never been tolerated by superiors under regular conditions - if only for reasons of wastefulness.

  1. Speed.

While it may seem like I’m picking on ET, I assure you it’s my favorite game and I would never change it. But it is also a perfect example for this item. In ET, a player runs 15 miles per hour (MPH) when sprinting, and 10.9 MPH during normal sustained movement. 15 MPH means a 4 minute mile - a feat which is considered the mark of an exceptional athleet. Sustained “normal” speed in ET is equivalent to a mile of 5:30, which is certainly moving along at a good clip. While a 19 year old, well trained footsoldier who was motivated by being shot at would certainly be in peak condition, it’s not likely he’d be able to continuously maintain a 5 1/2 minute mile while fully loaded with weapons and gear. This is just an exaple to illustrate what is not realistic. While seemingly slow and boring at first, a realistic game should not have a fast movement speed with things like strafe-jumping (which allows even higher speeds to be reached). Therefore, a brisk walk or “trot” should be the common speed of movement, with the ability to run (sprint) for short distances. While running, it must be impossible to take aim. Only suppressive shooting from the hip should be available. Also, a very slow, nearly silent mode of walking should be available, for stealthy movement.

  1. ?

I could keep going, adding more ideas and elaborating on these. But I’d rather hear what other people have to say. Please do elaborate on or criticize these ideas, and add your own. Do you think a truly realistic shooter could work? Why or why not? What would it take? How far should realism be sacrificed for the sake of fairness? If a game goes too far in that direction, when does it become “arcade”?

And finally, what do you consider to be the most realistic FPS game to date?

Thanks for reading :slight_smile:


(kamikazee) #2

You have some fine ideas here, and however I think a game implementing this will never be bought that much, it may be a nice starting point for a serious-conversion mod.

Now what I’ve asked myself: what about recoil caused by damage?
In MOHAA SP, you couldn’t take out a sniper with a sniper rifle just by hiding and emerging to shoot - he would hit you first, causing your aim to swing out untill he had reloaded.
Whilst it’s quite real your aim will be totally wasted if you get hit, what should be done in a game? Suppose you get shot in your arm, should you have such an enormous amount of recoil, do you simply go from ‘iron sight’ to ‘from the hip’ sight or do ‘you’ grab your arm, being unable to shoot?


#3

Great ideas, I think! How much time did you use to write that? If you like real life, then you could probably like this. So I’d like this! I could add something to even more realism (unless you already mentioned these ideas, looong text!).

Shooting: When not using iron sights and wanting to shoot, the player should be able to shoot. But then the player should shoot somewhere to that direction and hope for the best. And shooting in that case should have some wait before the shot.

Speed: All kind of movement uses stamina, some more than other. Even walking. And possibly the terrain could affect this?


(nUllSkillZ) #4

I think you should take a look at truecombat: elite (a mod for ET).
It has some of the features you have mentioned.


(Jaquboss) #5

and Price of Peace will have some too…
Also game called Vietcong ( Vietnam War obiously ) has serverside option to turn all hud off, and has some mentioned things too…
And others : Red Orchestra ( UT 2004 mod ) , Operation Flashpoint ( old, but at its time most realistic game avaiable )…
And of course they are some other modifications and games …
However you self know that ET is best and true realism game will most probably be very badly playable…


(SCDS_reyalP) #6

Games are for playing. So why would you design a game on some criteria other than how fun it was to play ?

Anyway, there are some fundamental problems making a game ‘realistic’.

Chance:
In real world combat, chance is a huge factor. Some people receive a minor gunshot wound, go into shock, and either die or are completely incapacitated. Others take multiple lethal hits, and still manage to fight effectively for a few minutes. Some people survive center-of-mass hits without any long term damage, while other people happen die from an extremity hit. Then there are things like ricochets, guns jamming etc. I think almost everyone would agree that this kind of complete randomness makes for bad gameplay. Losing a round just because your gun jammed is just annoying, and adds no value to the game. But if you take out gun jamming, you have just sacrificed ‘realism’ for gameplay.

A few responses to you comments:

Shooting from the hip:
Actually, it isn’t that hard. With some practice, you can become very good at it (You can play with this your self, without shooting live rounds if you own a laser sight. Aim which you think you should be shooting, then hit the laser. Unless you are doing this in a safe shooting area, this should obviously be done with a toy or airsoft type gun.) I think a lot of realism mods actually over-penalize instinctive shooting. I have no trouble hitting a man size target multiple times with an SMG type weapon at 7 yards (and I’m by no means an expert shooter).

The above brings up an interesting question of how you deal with the wide range of human skills. There are some exceptional shooters who can do things like throwing a dime in the air, and shoot it down with a revolver. Or fire 9 rounds into a bullseye in a couple seconds with a semi-auto handgun at 50 yards. Yet people routinely miss a human size target completely in encounters at 7 yards.

There is another problem with simulating instinctive shooting. If you disable the crosshair, people can still aim extremely well (and of course can cheat by putting a dot in the center of their screen by some other means). OTOH, if you randomize the aim to avoid this (as TC:E does) you get unrealistic inaccuracy… Two people standing a couple meters apart, and each missing wit an entire 30 round magazine.

Re #4:Fixed field of view.
A real humans FOV (without moving your head or eyes) is something like 160 degrees. However, the amount you can pay attention to and focus on is much less. Giving ironsights a more focused FOV is arguably more realistic than a fixed FOV. If you are concentrating on aiming down the sight, your chances of noticing something at the edge of your FOV is far less. The fact is that any representation on a normal computer screen is going to be completely unrealistic. There are some interesting things you could do to represent unfocused peripheral vision…

Re #6: hit detection isn’t fundamental to the engine. For example, Urban Terror uses a multi-box system much like CSS. ETs headbox/bodybox thing is entirely in gamecode, not engine code. Of course, it is a lot of work to make something more accurate, especially on an Q3 derived engine, which is set up to deal with AABs and capsules. Of course, unless your netcode is top quality, ‘realistic’ hit models just make your game more lotto.

Re #8:
Grenades pose an interesting problem in realism games. Every one I have ever seen completely dumbs them down for ‘gameplay’. With good reason too. Modern grenades have mostly have an lethal radius between 5 - 10 meters, but fragmentation grenades can be lethal at much longer distances (subject to decreasing odds, of course). You can of course avoid this by not allowing grenades in your game. While US army training discourages ‘cooking off’ it certainly can be done. Oh and back on the subject of randomness, the reason the army discourages cooking off is 1-2 second variation in fuse times…

FWIW, panzerfausts and bazookas were used quite routinely against entrenched positions. RPGs and riflegrenades fill that role today, but people still use antitank weapons in a pinch too.

To me, the conclusion of the above is that any computer game is so far removed from ‘realism’ that there will be always be multiple valid interpretations of what is ‘realistic’.The idea that you could make a ‘realistic’ game which makes no compromise for gameplay is fundamentally flawed. You could make a game that makes no concession to gameplay, but:

  1. it would suck to play.
  2. whether it was actually more ‘realistic’ than one which did keep gameplay in mind would be a matter of opinion.

(ouroboro) #7

good points there. i personally prefer arcadey games, but the idea of a realistic shooter has always intrigued me. probably because imo it’s never been done. i’ve tried tc:e and vietcong, as well as many others (hostile intent, hl mod, is quite good but it fails in the final analysis). as for it being fun to play, i think it would be immensely frustrating, but could indeed be VERY addictive for the right kind of player. the intensity would of course be very high. “fun to play” in the quake sense? no. fun in it’s own right? that’s what i’ve always wanted to find out…

someone mentioned increased recoil if an arm is wounded - that’s a great idea i think. controlling recoil would be difficult and painful with a wounded arm, and should be represented in-game.

of course, you can’t get EVERYTHING real. you mention the randomness of wounds. i suggested that we’d have to generalize those things. obviously if we’re talking about absolute realism, we’d have to include malaria from mosquitoes and syphylis from the native women, lol. i guess i’m talking about a generalized realism, which wouldn’t have to have every detail of reality, but it would at least not have anything completely UNrealistic.

jamming: i actually rather liked that about AA. of course it’s annoying, but so is life. and again, for a certain group of players, this kind of risk would be fun and exciting in itself.

hip shooting: is of course possible. i got pretty good with a friends SKS a few years ago. but i’m of course talking about shooting at any sort of range. up close and personal in a room? sure it’s possible and even preferable to raising the sights. but you’re not going to remove each button from his shirt one-by-one. you’re simply going to unload into his torso till he drops. the other thing to consider is that in such a game, those type of encounters would be rare. more than likely, one would very cautiously enter a room with sights up, not run in blindly and spraying.

as for human skills being varied - they are varied in gaming as well. if you put a group of players in a game with equal health/ammo/weapons/hardware/etc, the most skilled will rise to the top. so i disagree with that point. yes a trickshot can punch a hole through a quarter with his peacemaker, while the next guy can’t hit a barn door. but so can one gamer triple-dink you in ET, while the other can’t.

taping the screen is not much of a problem imo, because as you say, a skilled player can judge the center instinctively. but introducing a larger amount of sway and instability to an unsighted weapon would do a good job of representing the increased controllability of a properly sighted weapon, and would discourage hip-shooting, or at least make it less desireable at range - just like RL. and that same instability would make taping not very helpfull.

FOV: the world does not zoom when sighted. focusing the FOV might seem proper, but even when focused on a target, my peripheral vision remains. in fact, i disagree that one loses attention of the periphery when aiming. i certainly don’t. the periphery is always the same - a blurred view which can pick up movement but not detail.

i agree fully on the grenades. a truly realistic game would have to make them utterly lethal. then again, in RL they are not tossed around like tiddly winks, but are used more selectively. since i can’t think of a way to acceptably regulate their use, i’d prefer to not have them. this fits MY definition of realism, which allows for the removal of realistic things, but not the addition of unrealistic things.

i wasn’t clear on the antitank weapons: firing a panzer at a single enemy from pistol range is certainly unrealistic :slight_smile:

your final point i just think is opinion. it may suck for you, and maybe (probably?) for me as well. but there are certain people who would find the challenge of such a game very attractive. i admit that it will probably never be done on a big scale because of sales, but the target audience is out there, i’m sure of it. as for realism being an opinion - no. there are levels of realism. as you said, you can’t make it totally real. but my ideas were more about taking a reality, and trying to represent it as best you can. not being all-inclusive, but deciding what aspects of reality a realistic shooter must have, and trying to make it happen on screen.

anyway, great points. thanks :slight_smile:


(SCDS_reyalP) #8

as for realism being an opinion - no. there are levels of realism. as you said, you can’t make it totally real. but my ideas were more about taking a reality, and trying to represent it as best you can. not being all-inclusive, but deciding what aspects of reality a realistic shooter must have, and trying to make it happen on screen.

My point is that using a mouse and keyboard to direct a avatar in a world that is projected on a 2d display is so far from ‘real’ that there are multiple (nearly unlimited) contradictory interpretations of what is ‘realistic’.

The point about skill ties into the above. If you set out to design a ‘realistic’ game, you must decide what limits are imposed by the game, and which ones are imposed by player skill. e.g. Can a player reliably get headshots with a handgun at 50 meters ? If you say yes (based on the true fact there are humans who can do it, and hardware physically capable of doing it), you end up with game where people “unrealistically” use the handgun like a quake3 railgun, because a lot more people can line up a mouse than can pull off that feat with a handgun. OTOH, if you artificially add spread to the hand gun (based on the also true fact that your average shooter is lucky to get a body shot at 50 meters) you have unrealistically limited the capabilities of the handgun. Somewhere, you have to choose the values, and a fairly wide range of those choices are equally “real”

FOV is another good example. Even a 120 degree FOV is unrealistically narrow. But a human with normal vision can pick out and aim at things in the real world which would be impossible to pick out when projected on a normal display, viewed from normal distance at FOV 120. Zooming for ironsight is unrealistic, but so is not allowing you to see things human could see at a given range. Restricting the FOV under 160 is also unrealistic.

You can propose other systems for particular cases above, but representing one environment in very different one will always force you to choose between a number of incomplete approximations. Once you realize those choices are pretty much arbitrary in terms of realism, you start thinking about gameplay and implementation constraints. Then you rethink your other choices in terms of the ones you have made.


(ouroboro) #9

very good point. what i’d suggest as the best solution for it, would be to give a gun “sway”. that way, we can make a weapon with realistic ballistics, but still require the player to use hand/eye coordination to control it. you’re right, it can never be “real”. but in a game, the mouse becomes our gun. controlling the sway of a weapon with the mouse would be as close as you can get to real-world aiming. and it would let those with skill rise above the rest.

FOV is definately a problem. the best thing i can think of would be to take an idea like fisheye quake, and add progressive blurring from the center outwards. that would approximate human perception to an acceptable degree i think. it would also, as a side-effect, add the proper blurring to the parts of a model-based iron sight picture which were closest to the eye.


(gerbalblaste) #10

a hl2 mod called http://www.resistanceandliberation.com/ is trying to doo all of that and more.


(ouroboro) #11

wow! thanks for the heads up. i’ll be watching this mod for sure. :banana:


(carnage) #12

My point is that using a mouse and keyboard to direct a avatar in a world that is projected on a 2d display is so far from ‘real’ that there are multiple (nearly unlimited) contradictory interpretations of what is ‘realistic’.

i have to agree if you consider weapons inacuracy, when a human head sways it still easy to stay focust on one point so it makes sence that the screen remain static and the gun inacuracy is show in a differnt way like the ET crosshairs

but ET crosshair are also unrealistic so would it be better to give all guns the sniper style sway? but that could make the gamer harder to look at

however this does not mean that a game build on some1s interpritation of what realism is will not be fun to play and in comparison to other game will seem more realistic. And i would not mind playing a game build around some of the above points.

maby a project like this would be better suited to a later engine like doom or the Hl2 mentioned above. the ragdol physic system imo make the game seem a lot more realistic especaily where grendades are considered. also the doom3 hit detection would be good for things like you say arm shots etc. if the moddle was brokend down into enough grouops im pretty sure you could track a bullet to 8 sections on each arm if you want to have more realisitc wounds

you should write this up if your serios about starting a MOD. there are a few ppl round here that will no from bitter expeince it better to have ur mod fully planed before u start to make it so you know exactly what u need to do.


(squadjot) #13

you should write this up if your serios about starting a MOD. there are a few ppl round here that will no from bitter expeince it better to have ur mod fully planed before u start to make it so you know exactly what u need to do.

amen


(BicycleRepairMan) #14

This game practically already exists, its called Red Orchestra, its an eastern front ww2 mod for unreal Tournament 2004

http://www.redorchestramod.com

Right now Tripwire (the team behind RO) has an unrealengine 3 lisence and is probably working on some kind of sequel…


(carnage) #15

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

watched the RO trailer

thats a MOD! strange how UT get so many good modders but there is little in comparison with ET


(nUllSkillZ) #16

Wasn’t there a competition “Make something Unreal” (or something similar).
With prices to win.

I tried Red Orchestra.
But unfortunately I can’t play UT based games / mods.
I get some kind of “seasick”.
Don’t know why.
May be because of my mouse settings.


(carnage) #17

I get some kind of “seasick”.

i got that with wolf3D

i think its something to do with frame interpolation so it doesnt turn quite right and very slightl looks like ur heads bein shaked


(bani) #18

the game you describe already exists: operation flashpoint

it is so realistic it’s completely unplayable.


(ouroboro) #19

Oh wow I never check this part of the forum. :stuck_out_tongue:

This topic was just me thinking out loud. I posted it because I wondered what other people would think about it. I’d love to try a game which adheres to my outline, but all the games mentioned above fail in some way. In my estimation there has never been a properly realistic game, so I posted what I’d consider true “realism” as far as a video game goes.

Yes, one could just go play paintball. One could join the Marines and get shipped to Iraq, for that matter. Both are irrelevant to the subject of how to make a video game more realistic.

I personally prefer to run around fast and furious with guns blazing, so I play W:ET.