Musings on basic character development issues

(Schwarzeis) #141

[QUOTE=Exedore;273265]I honestly don’t see a whole lot of people respeccing at level 20, as there aren’t many abilities that are Rank 5 and they’re class-specific, so one would have a good idea of what class(es) that character is tailored towards. If the player thinks a radical change is necessary, there’s a fairly radical penalty.

Most of the experimentation will happen at the mid and lower levels, where a lost level can be made up very quickly.

Unfortunate clarifications of some old information: [ul]
[li]You can maintain up to 10 characters, not 16.
[/li][li]You unfortunately cannot transfer XP between characters. It’s something we wanted to do, but was ultimately a casualty of getting the game finished for May.
[/li][/ul][/QUOTE]

No chance you can up the character count to 12? :stuck_out_tongue:

Then you can have a specialist of every body type and class

(JeP) #142

A character doesn’t have a body type attached, you can choose your character and, entering a game, his body type.

No no, IT IS the idea : you have opportunity and will to try them BECAUSE the choice is limited.

[QUOTE=Ragoo;273325]I don’t have all day to play!

So even tho I 100% understand that this is cool for casuals and probably a good decision if you look at it this way, and people will have more fun and the game will get more sells, for me it’s just complete bull**** and no fun at all to level up characters.[/QUOTE]
You really should revise the casual definition. Among other things, they don’t have all day to play…

(Schwarzeis) #143

JeP, are you saying body type aint permanent? :S

(Ragoo) #144

[QUOTE=JeP;273338]
You really should revise the casual definition. Among other things, they don’t have all day to play…[/QUOTE]

Casuals don’t care whether they are newbies or not. They just play the game and have some fun and want it to be as easy as possible to get into but don’t care much about getting better or doing what’s best.
They will also not focus on one game but play many different games. And they won’t care about watching competitive games or theorycrafting.

I don’t plan to be like that when I play BRINK.

SC2 analogy: Everyone who is Gold and below is definitely a casual. I’m high diamond/low Master and definitely invest time,thought and effort in playing this game well so I’m not a casual.

On the other hand when I play Pokemon I just play through the game and have some fun and I don’t have anything to do with the hardcore Pokemon scene, so I consider myself to be casual @ Pokemon.

(Mustkunstn1k) #145

Okay I’m kind of confused. Are the body types permanent… or when can I change them?
I mean if I can’t change them. Then I can’t even have every bodytype for every class?

(Schwarzeis) #146

[QUOTE=Mustkunstn1k;273348]Okay I’m kind of confused. Are the body types permanent… or when can I change them?
I mean if I can’t change them. Then I can’t even have every bodytype for every class?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, if they up the character count with 2 we can have every class with every bodytype, but… Nope, 10 it is - UNLESS THEY CHANGE IT!

And I have no idea, if the bodytypes aren’t permanent, then what is the point?

(Bridger) #147

But what is your well thought out plan based upon? Prior experience. A well thought out plan is nothing but trial and error that works the first time!

Yeah you can call the whole hypothesis experimenting trial and error as well but then you’re back at playing word-games again which is something you seem to be very fond of.

Only because you change their definition. Lets get on the same page here.

  1. How do you define “trial and error” play? How is it different from other categories (and what other categories are there?)

  2. Why is Trial And Error play less desirable to it’s alternative?

If you ignore these questions (as you ignored them when Senethro asked them) we can conclude that you concede this point.

Then I’m sorry for you. That must really suck.

I’m sorry for you too, if you can’t see past the facade to the game mechanics working behind the scenes. Game Theory and game design really are fascinating subjects. I can recommended a few books if you are interested.

I seem to think everyone needs to think for themselves. That can include incorporating things other people do, which is fine as long as you’ve considered it yourself.

You value creativity and innovation. That’s great. You do seem to get offended if other people copy an existing build. I’m not sure I understand why. What does it matter to you if someone manages to find a great build by themselves of if they read about it on the forum (or see it in a game and copy it)? The end result is exactly the same.

Unfortunately in games like this, most people do like to win, so everyone is innovating and trying to find the optimal build. This isn’t a problem if there is a variety of viable options. If, however, there is only one or two builds that are tournament-viable, then everyone winds up being the same. This is not due to people “copying,” it is rather due to an imbalance in the choices. I’m hoping Brink can strike that balance.

The only way to ensure that people are innovating by themselves (instead of copying) is to prevent all discussion anywhere on builds and loadouts. This is obviously not possible. With or without a respecing cost the meta-game will evolve as thousands and thousands of trials are run and the community will zero-in on optimal builds. The only thing a restraint does is slow down the process artificially and frustrate people who have chosen wrong.

A restraint on respeccing means people won’t change specs lightly and thus discourages both trial and error as well as copy cat behaviour.

Again: Can you describe what makes trial and error or copy cat behavior undesirable? Why are they bad? You seem to assume that everyone agrees on this point and refuse to define it.

(Bridger) #148

[QUOTE=JeP;273338]No no, IT IS the idea : you have opportunity and will to try them BECAUSE the choice is limited.
[/QUOTE]

He’s saying “I don’t get to try them out, I have to pick one and then live with it or be punished.”

(Schwarzeis) #149

Aight… So no re-talenting?

Choose this, stuck with it forever until deletion of character?

(Senethro) #150

Yeah, uhhh, citation needed. Theres been previous information to the contrary.

(JeP) #151

[QUOTE=Schwarzeis;273349]Yeah, if they up the character count with 2 we can have every class with every bodytype, but… Nope, 10 it is - UNLESS THEY CHANGE IT!

And I have no idea, if the bodytypes aren’t permanent, then what is the point?[/QUOTE]
The only thing permanent for a character is is voice and is skin color. As I said, you can choose whatever character you want, a body type and a class in the beginning of a game. For what I’ve understood. Thing is, you CAN’T change your body type in a map. But class yes.

Ragoo : First, casuals don’t play FPS. They stick to Dr Kawashima, the Sims, etc, things that most gamer won’t even considere they’re games.

Now, if you’re talking about “softcore” gamers that don’t care about trying to master a game and want more a good ride well scripted than an open game long to take fun with, I don’t see how having to “work” to get each perks/weapon adapted to them, since, following what you said, they don’t spend much time on games. Of course they’ll prefere getting better by a game granting them points and levels and stuffs than perfecting simple techniques, but that means they will still be the more left out by having to earn more and more XP to level up different characters.

Just wanted to point out that people should stop using the word “casual” every where, whenever they don’t find a feature to their liking.

(Schwarzeis) #152

Aight… So bodytype is changable in the start of a match

Face, skin, voice, scars and tattoos are permanent, yeah?

And you cannot re-specc your talent points, they are there forever til deletion of character?

(CapnHowdy21) #153

Again I will say one more thing. This game seems more and more to be RPG-FPS.

There is a very strong RPG element that includes leveling, and choices. There are a some people here who don’t like that. I understand that, but it seems to be that is the design the went with. You wanted a straight multiplayer FPS, what you have is this instead. You have to decide if it is worth it.

As for the leveling being extrinsic rewards, well there are a lot of people who enjoy that. I know you call it white noise, but it diablo is an example of that. Prestigeing in call of duty is another example and something wildly popular. Many people just give up all their work for the minor reward of a cool symbol or name plate. However, most do it because they like leveling. They know they are chasing the cheese, but they don’t care. SD has embraced that philosophy, for better or worse. Again, you just have to decide if it is worth putting up with that to play the multiplayer fps part.

(Bridger) #154

When you first create a character, you have to pick a racial archetype and voice, and those are permanent. Only a few clothing customization pieces are available at the start, and more unlock each time you level up. As soon as something is unlocked, it’s unlocked for any character created with that profile.

The Heavy bodytype is available at level 5 and Light is available at level 7, and those can be switched in the front end for no cost.

He specifically says that racial archetype and voice are permanent, implying that everything else is NOT permanent. In addition, bodytype can’t be permanent because they unlock at later levels (unless it gives you the choice to change at those levels and then locks you in, but I find that unlikely).

I’d guess you could change bodytype at a command station. Or perhaps in a menu. If you are forced to leave the game to change it I am going to be very upset. That’s unacceptable. It’s like saying someone has to leave a TF2 game to change class.

(Schwarzeis) #155

[QUOTE=Bridger;273368]He specifically says that racial archetype and voice are permanent, implying that everything else is NOT permanent. In addition, bodytype can’t be permanent because they unlock at later levels (unless it gives you the choice to change at those levels and then locks you in, but I find that unlikely).

I’d guess you could change bodytype at a command station. Or perhaps in a menu. If you are forced to leave the game to change it I am going to be very upset. That’s unacceptable. It’s like saying someone has to leave a TF2 game to change class.[/QUOTE]

At the click of a button, John turned into a big bulky brute, only to later click the same button and turn into a skinny twig

Doesn’t make sense, you can change your class at the computor, same **** as in TF2, you change your class

Now that I read through these two threads I understand alot of information I/we got from Splash has been changed dramatically…

Non-permanent bodytypes
Only 10 characters
No re-talenting (or is there?)
And it seems like tattoos and scars are not permanent either?

(Senethro) #156

[QUOTE=Bridger;273368]He specifically says that racial archetype and voice are permanent, implying that everything else is NOT permanent. In addition, bodytype can’t be permanent because they unlock at later levels (unless it gives you the choice to change at those levels and then locks you in, but I find that unlikely).

I’d guess you could change bodytype at a command station. Or perhaps in a menu. If you are forced to leave the game to change it I am going to be very upset. That’s unacceptable. It’s like saying someone has to leave a TF2 game to change class.[/QUOTE]

There was a previous large thread about this, though granted it was some months ago. At that time bodytype had to be changed for a cost out of game. Where’d the bit you quoted come from? I could easily believe that bodytype can now be changed for free but would be sceptical if they decided to allow changes mid match. I can’t remember if there was ever an official reason given why not, but it was a big thing at the time.

(Bridger) #157

[QUOTE=Schwarzeis;273369]At the click of a button, John turned into a big bulky brute, only to later click the same button and turn into a skinny twig

Doesn’t make sense, you can change your class at the computor, same **** as in TF2, you change your class[/quote]

Of course it doesn’t make sense. Neither does a guy eating a grenade and a half a clip of SMG bullets and still being able to move and fight perfectly. Neither does sticking a needle in your side and magically healing your grievous wounds. This isn’t a realistic game.

And the comparison to TF2 is apt. In TF2 your class determines your speed/health/weapons/abilities. Brink splits that into two separate choices (bodytype determines speed/health/weapons and class determines abilities). Both of those choices need to be changable on the fly. What if your team has too many heavy players? What if you’ve got too many light characters and you cannot hold up in a firefight? I’d want to switch to balance the team out so we’d have a better chance at victory.

(Senethro) #158

[QUOTE=Schwarzeis;273369]At the click of a button, John turned into a big bulky brute, only to later click the same button and turn into a skinny twig

Doesn’t make sense, you can change your class at the computor, same **** as in TF2, you change your class

Now that I read through these two threads I understand alot of information I/we got from Splash has been changed dramatically…

Non-permanent bodytypes
Only 10 characters
No re-talenting (or is there?)
And it seems like tattoos and scars are not permanent either?[/QUOTE]

Its a game, it doesn’t need to make sense. Its not the same as TF2 because in TF2, class controls hitboxes/speed/health while body size does in Brink. In TF2 you could consider it as 9 fixed Class+Bodytype loadouts while in Brink there are 12 but you can only pick from 4 once you’re in game.

(Bridger) #159

That quote is on page 1 of this thread. See it here: http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showpost.php?p=272878&postcount=15

(JeP) #160

From the compendum :

In addition to choosing the look for your character, you will also choose a body type. There are 3 body types in Brink; Light, Medium and Heavy, and each have their own advantages and disadvantages. Body types can be swapped at the end of a match but not during matches, and the differences can basically be separated into 6 categories.

* - It has been confirmed that when you’re between missions, you can change your body type via the appearance customization options, however, DURING missions, you cannot change your body or appearance.

“You can change class as many times in a given match, but you cannot change body type. Once you’re in a mission you’re that body type throughout. You live with the choice you made, but you can make that right by adding the abilities.”

  • Richard Ham

You’re going to be very upset then.

But what I don’t understand though… what is the front end ? Does this mean you choose your body type when customizing a character ? Does this means you can’t change your body types between rounds/maps ?

Schwarzeis : All the information was there from a long time.
Body-types has never been said to be permanent.
The number of character was between 8 to 16, 10 don’t seem to be this few (?).
Their is retalenting, they haven’t fix the cost before
I don’t really care about tattoos and scars, but as it has been said : only voice and racial archetype are permanent, so I think you can still swap your tattoos.

People should understand the informations, that way they would be less disappointed…