Musings on basic character development issues

(Exedore) #121

I honestly don’t see a whole lot of people respeccing at level 20, as there aren’t many abilities that are Rank 5 and they’re class-specific, so one would have a good idea of what class(es) that character is tailored towards. If the player thinks a radical change is necessary, there’s a fairly radical penalty.

Most of the experimentation will happen at the mid and lower levels, where a lost level can be made up very quickly.

Unfortunate clarifications of some old information: [ul]
[li]You can maintain up to 10 characters, not 16.
[/li][li]You unfortunately cannot transfer XP between characters. It’s something we wanted to do, but was ultimately a casualty of getting the game finished for May.
[/li][/ul]

(Senethro) #122

[QUOTE=Exedore;273265]I honestly don’t see a whole lot of people respeccing at level 20, as there aren’t many abilities that are Rank 5 and they’re class-specific, so one would have a good idea of what class(es) that character is tailored towards. If the player thinks a radical change is necessary, there’s a fairly radical penalty.

Most of the experimentation will happen at the mid and lower levels, where a lost level can be made up very quickly.

Unfortunate clarifications of some old information: [ul]
[li]You can maintain up to 10 characters, not 16.
[/li][li]You unfortunately cannot transfer XP between characters. It’s something we wanted to do, but was ultimately a casualty of getting the game finished for May.
[/li][/ul][/QUOTE]

So… uhhh… If I’m a heavy with medic oriented perks and I want to do something different, SD’s expectation is that I grind out a new character rather than respec?

(Ragoo) #123

[QUOTE=Exedore;273265]I honestly don’t see a whole lot of people respeccing at level 20, as there aren’t many abilities that are Rank 5 and they’re class-specific, so one would have a good idea of what class(es) that character is tailored towards. If the player thinks a radical change is necessary, there’s a fairly radical penalty.

Most of the experimentation will happen at the mid and lower levels, where a lost level can be made up very quickly.

Unfortunate clarifications of some old information: [ul]
[li]You can maintain up to 10 characters, not 16.
[/li][li]You unfortunately cannot transfer XP between characters. It’s something we wanted to do, but was ultimately a casualty of getting the game finished for May.
[/li][/ul][/QUOTE]

Oh ****, now this sounds reeeaaly concerning to me.

Less characters, no XP sharing, class-specific rank-5 abilities that you can’t change easily and body size is permanent (for a match) as well.
This is looking more and more like a MMORPG.

And I still think that with the random teams you get when you join a server on your own this is really problematic.
So now I can have a heavy guy who has rank-5 medic stuff and radomly join a server and find myself in a team where I’m not really needed. For example a team of all Heavy medics on the attacking team and we need another class to do the objective. This just sounds ridiculous to me.

It’s fine for organized teams who have a plan as a whole but not for random teams imo.

Btw, is it still so that every server is ranked so we can alter XP and get easy XP? I mean that’s more like cheating but… sorry but I really really don’t want to play this like an MMORPG where I have to level up every single character. This is bull****. I’m a big supporter of most of your decisions SD, and I believe you are the best multiplayer FPS makers, but this is total bull****.

(Apoc) #124

[quote=Ragoo;273293]

Btw, is it still so that every server is ranked so we can alter XP and get easy XP? I mean that’s more like cheating but… sorry but I really really don’t want to play this like an MMORPG where I have to level up every single character. This is bull****. I’m a big supporter of most of your decisions SD, and I believe you are the best multiplayer FPS makers, but this is total bull****.[/quote]

Chill…if its a shooter you want its a shooter youve got. Level one or level twenty you can still shoot people. You only have to “grind” (cant imagine its even close to mmorpg level) to get random little fancy abilities. Level 1 to 7 will be very fast to get body types…what more do you want.

These guys have been playing this game while making it for nearing 2 years. They definately know better than you what is good for the game. Stop judging random facts as if youve played the game and its ruined your life.

(Ragoo) #125

[QUOTE=Apoc;273299]
These guys have been playing this game while making it for nearing 2 years. They definately know better than you what is good for the game. Stop judging random facts as if youve played the game and its ruined your life.[/QUOTE]

How exactly is it better for me if I have to play much to get XP on my characters? Explain.

(JeP) #126

How can someone not being a dev explain or convince you ? Can’t you stop whining ?

You don’t HAVE to play much, you can play the game, enjoy it, have fun, and suddenly you gain access to a new ability.

I wish people would take this advice, cause the same complaint repeated over and over cause they want some attention from the devs and they’re dead sure this attribute is overpowered and will ruin the game is getting old…

(Apoc) #127

Firstly, as you may already aware by the fact that you havent had to submit a personal profile and gone into sd’s office for multiple interviews and character analysis…this game hasnt been made for you personally. shock

So bearing that in mind, the xp system allows all players (it will help new players alot) to slowly build up their skills, letting them play a bit of the game then when they get used to it showing them more…so as to not overwhelm them.

But i guess thats wasnt really what you were asking, youd like to have 10 characters that level up together, even though they are different people, that way you only have to get to level 20 once.

This is probably (other than it just making sense, when i play rugby my friend who isnt playing doesnt get better at it too…) to satisfy the players who like having goals to work towards, those who like to play lots, the players that try to get rank 15 prestige on cod or unlock all achievements on halo.

But back to your question. The answer is its better for the vast majority, its a utilitarianistic decision, which has to be made in games. But you have the choice. No one says you have to create 10 characters…i think 3 or 4 is enough. And it wont really matter what level they are once they are above 7 which will be extreamly easy to get to. so really 3 x 7 = 21 or 4 x 7 = 28 so you only need to level 8 levels more than before, except these levels go much much faster.

Granted if you want the random fancy perk that makes you whistle when you skip then you have to put the work in to get it. But you get all that you will need off the bat.

You cant expect to have everything unlocked to you immediately, it would overwhelm you, put off new players, offer no insentive for those players that like to play for something other than fun.

(Bridger) #128

So do you magically just “know” how every single thing in every game works?

Every. Single. Game. Is. Trial. And. Error. Play!

That’s ALL gaming is. You form a hypothesis (I bet the door is connected to that button, i’ll need to stand on the button to open the door) and test your hypothesis (when I stand on the button the door opens!). Then you update your hypothesis with new data (when I step off the button it closes again - I bet I need to place something ON the button).

This is the underlying process used in every single video/console/board game in existence. That is literally ALL you do (ok, you also build up muscle memory). Games are the application of trial and error. You base future judgement on previous failed/successful trials (the last few times I’ve played this map a sniper really hampered my progress from the top of that container, I’m going to try throwing a grenade up there when I come back this time!).

In this light, I don’t understand your derisive comment about trial and error behavior.

Let me rephrase this: “If there was no such restraint, people could more easily do what works instead of being stuck with blind choices.”

You seem to think everyone everywhere should be innovating their own gameplay and never copy anything anyone else does (because that’s bad for some reason?). That’s not really how the world works. With thousands of people playing the game, some people are going to hit on what “works” before other people (see trial and error above). Once those people find what “works” (lets say what works most optimally) other people will take note, and use it also. This is how the meta-game evolves.

The goal of a game’s design shouldn’t be to slow the meta-game evolution through artificial trial-and-error limitations. The goal should be to make sure that there are many viable choices. Because if setup A can be just as effective as setup B, it doesn’t matter how many people copy or who figured it out first, there are still a lot of options to explore. That’s what matters.

Depth is created by balanced choices, not artificially limited ones.

(Senethro) #129

Its like SD have lost sight of their business model. We’re paying for the game once and probably some additional DLC on the side. Why then is there enforced grinding if you want to play more than one class?

Grinding is a way for Blizzard to get more money through lengthening playtime. Grinding is a trick, not a game feature.

(Bridger) #130

As the study of actual game design is clearly over yours.

(JeP) #131

And lots of people are loving it. Diablo and all H’n’S have strong grinding, it’s fun and have a great success. Why ? Because all the game isn’t about that, because they’re fun by THEMSELF and xping/looting are just good opportunities to play over and over again. Brink will be no different, you can play without thinking that you have so much XP to gain to access the next level. As they said, the biggest feature are earn in early levels.

XP system unlocking features, having to balance choices, all these are giving a weight to what we earn, and make an opportunity to try each weapon/skill as we unlock them, to know their effectiveness and balance our choices later. If we were given all at the beginning, that would not be less fun, but we would have less attachment, less knowledge of each possibility.

But if you don’t like it you can still no play the game :cool:

(Bridger) #132

What if we have a clan match in 25 minutes and our heavy-medic is missing? Do i need to go grind a level as fast as I can to respec? Or maybe I have to spend a huge chunk of time playing on a different account with lower level players in order to have a backup character? I honestly hope there’s a clan mode that simply unlocks everything so we don’t have to deal with that nightmare scenario. I kept hearing about how SD remembers their “hardcore” gaming roots, so I trust there’s a server option that will disable all limitations. If not that will be the first on the list for any kind of competition mod.

(JeP) #133

Having all options available right away seems quite casual to me :smiley:

Being forced to earn it, in the other hand…

(Bridger) #134

Actually, they are “fun” because the human mind LOVES to get “stuff” and rewards you with a shot of dopamine when you have the perception of having achieved something. This is why people can get “addicted” to games like WoW. Even though you are making zero meaningful decisions the game treats you like you just made progress, and so you feel like you made progress, and so your brain gives you a shot of dopamine.

If you’re jaded enough to see through to the fact that your choices are almost worthless the game stops becoming fun.

Grinding is looked down upon by gamers because even though it is “work” it is skillless work. When you grind in diablo you are pressing the same 6 buttons over and over and over as your cooldowns come online. Same in WoW. The situation is the same all the time and requires the same input. You are basically a trained monkey fallowing the same routine and watching an XP bar fill up.

If you fall for the illusion of challenging work you won’t notice it and it will feel satisfying.

Now, to avoid the responces, notice that I specifically said the above case is true when grinding. There are certainly challenging sections of WoW and Diablo (raids, boss fights, etc.) but they seem way too few and far between.

(Apoc) #135

Comp mod would probs use no perks or abilities, just have light, heavy, medium unlocked, with a smaller selction of weapons

(Senethro) #136

Yeah, theres that white noise again. I found Diablo tiresome and a mystery. Games should be driven by the intrinsic reward of playing, not the extrinsic reward of chasing gear/levels. When you quote this with a witty rebuttal, be sure to say why its a good idea why extrinsic rewards give you bonus damage/health or whatever.

XP system unlocking features, having to balance choices, all these are giving a weight to what we earn,

A negative weight on decisions to stick with what you’ve got instead of test new things. Not all weight is good weight.

and make an opportunity to try each weapon/skill as we unlock them,

This is false. We don’t have an opportunity to try them as we unlock them because the ability to choose them is limited.

If we were given all at the beginning, that would not be less fun,

Is what I’m saying man!

but we would have less attachment, less knowledge of each possibility.

We’d have more knowledge of each possibility because we’d have been able to try them.

But if you don’t like it you can still no play the game :derp:

This never gets old.

(Senethro) #137

If its one thing I’ve learned, its that you should never rely on a games comp mod to quickly solve all your problems.

(Ragoo) #138

For me it’s fun not only to try stuff and develope my own style but also to watch better players than me and if I think what they do is interesting I just copy it.

This is especially true in SC2 for me at the moment. I’m a big e-sport fan and I watch a lot of SC2 and whenever I see someone do something cool and effective I just go online and try it out myself.

Now I imagine how it will be in BRINK… “oh wow this guy has a light character and plays with these certain abilities and it seems really cool and effective… guess I have to invest some hours(or rather days) to level up a new character so I can try this out, too”
Yeah that’s great fun isn’t it? Leveling up characters so I can try out new stuff, nice.

Just to make it clear tho, I’m rather competitive when I play games. I might not be a top player at anything but I don’t really play many games casually. In fact I almost only play one game (two when BRINK comes out, BRINK and SC2) and try to be as good as possible at it. Plus I’ll be on the forums a lot and watch competitive games if they exist. So I will figure stuff out quite fast but then I have to invest so much time for leveling up characters to try it out.

I don’t have all day to play!

So even tho I 100% understand that this is cool for casuals and probably a good decision if you look at it this way, and people will have more fun and the game will get more sells, for me it’s just complete bull**** and no fun at all to level up characters.

Abilities are not that unimportant if you play serious I guess. Stuff like special grenades, reloading while sprinting,getting a notification if someone has you in his crosshair, faster disarming etc IS important.

lolol, that’s such a funny scenario. But at the same time it’s really sad -.-

(Ragoo) #139

I don’t think the comp mod will be this drastic. And I don’t want it to be either.
Maybe some abilites are imba and will get taken out. But at this point there doesn’t seem too many game breaking things (mabye radar?).

(tokamak) #140

[QUOTE=Bridger;273308]So do you magically just “know” how every single thing in every game works?
Every. Single. Game. Is. Trial. And. Error. Play!
[/QUOTE]
If you’ve got a well thought out plan it stops being trial and error. Yeah you can call the whole hypothesis experimenting trial and error as well but then you’re back at playing word-games again which is something you seem to be very fond of.

That’s ALL gaming is.

Then I’m sorry for you. That must really suck.

You seem to think everyone everywhere should be innovating their own gameplay and never copy anything anyone else does (because that’s bad for some reason?

I seem to think everyone needs to think for themselves. That can include incorporating things other people do, which is fine as long as you’ve considered it yourself. A restraint on respeccing means people won’t change specs lightly and thus discourages both trial and error as well as copy cat behaviour.