mp_assault_b1 ?

(chavo_one) #21

I guess we have to have this argument every time someone shows up converting maps illegally. :???:

(DG) #22

btw the theft analogy doesnt work, because the whole confusion of the issue revolves around you being able to create an exact duplicate of the car to “borrow”, and the original car is still there untouched for the owner. Theft of a car involves removing it and depriving the owner of it.

The most fitting analogy is of forging a painting, but where you do not claim it to be the original. As with the map copying here, the only “cost” to the owner is of a “cheapening” due to duplicate availability - for the painting this affects both the sense of perception, and of monetary value (because market has partial alternatives). For the map, since it’s probably fair to assume copying the map will not lose RTCW any sales, or any other monetary loss, the only “cheapening” is in the sense of opinion in the mind of the original’s owner.

There is a strong movement that argues (in sum) that if a copyright owner is no longer making money from (or doing much with) the copyright, then it should be made freely available available on public liscence. This sort of happens already under UK law for patents, you can appeal for patent to be nullified if the owner is not doing anything with it (so e.g. oil companies cant buy patents for a non-oil car to prevent anyone making an alternative to oil-based cars), because the overall objective for copyright and patents is for the long term public good. The current concerns about copyright and patents is that governments have “forgotten” (under corrupting influence?) the true objective is not to maximise value for the copyright holder.

None of the above changes the copyright owner’s legal and moral rights of course; my point isnt that its either legally or morally OK for him to copy the map, merely that the topic is a lot more complex and morally ambiguous.

(chavo_one) #23

But when you are using actual components of the source (textures, models, sounds) then you aren’t simply forging a painting.

(DG) #24

the point is the original is still there untouched and unaffected :poke:

(G0-Gerbil) #25

Ah the joys of bringing laws up to date with the digital revolution :smiley:
I like the analogy of the oil company and car stuff DG - was it purely an example or they’ve actually tried to do it? cough OT.

Anyway, this map hasn’t been copied by eye, it’s been reverse-engineered, and that’s another nice little avenue of illegality :smiley:

(thore) #26

you guys don’t have other things to do than accusing little mappers of illegal actions?
if someone of the officials is offended by conversions made without permission it’s up
to them to hunt him down… just let him continue, he’ll see what he gets out of it.

we’re all tired of those discussions - but horus isn’t the one who started it… again…

i guess horus is now aware of the circumstance, the mapping community isn’t
happy about ‘the easy way of mapping’. lay back and see what happens…

gl horus. your map’s quite dark :smiley:

(HandofHorus) #27

ET has a TON of Textures/Models/Sounds from RTCW in its PK3’s.

RTCW Textures/Models/Sounds are already authorized to be used with ET.

(G0-Gerbil) #28

The legality for me is just a nice and easy way of having fun :slight_smile:
The real issue is I don’t want to see RTCW maps in ET - I think they will convert shitly, and more to the point I’m quite frankly sick of them after playing them for years and years. When I do get the urge to play them - I join an RTCW server.
Bear in mind only an RTCW player will ‘miss’ these maps, so they must HAVE RTCW, so why not play that?

ET needs more clan orientated maps - true.
But create something original FFS, don’t just take ‘the easy option’, when it’s quite clear the end result will be anything other than clan-orientated both because of legality and because ET is very different playing-style-wise to RTCW. Therefore there’s absolutely no logic for converting RTCW maps to ET, whether you think it’s for more clan-maps or otherwise.

The thing I find most curious though is why so many people assume RTCW = ET from a legal point of view. Imagine if someone converted assault to, say, BF1942 - don’t you think that would be extremely cheeky? :wink:

Anyway, bottom line for me - RTCW maps for RTCW, and new maps tailored for ET which make use of the very different dynamics of the game engine.
The actual action of doing something illegal is for each person to decide on their own conscience. But I believe people are converting RTCW maps under the misapprehension that they’ll automatically ‘be great in ET’ - which has so obviously been proved to be incorrect that I can’t see why people are still bothering…

(SCDS_reyalP) #29

Only the ones actually given out with ET. Splashdamage had the right to pick and choose which RTCW assets they wanted to re-use. We don’t. The respective EULAs are very clear that you are permitted to create ‘new creations’ only for the original game. The fact that ET has some assets which are identical to RTCW assets does not in any way grant you permission to redistribute other assets from RTCW.

This issue has been brought up with id a number of times (i.e using doom textures in quake etc), and the answer has always been a resounding NO.

Of course many people do illegal things every day, without doing real harm to others. If you have never exceeded the legal speed limit, used a illegal substance, or copied a CD… well congratulations, you are one of the few. The moral judgement is up to you. It doesn’t seem to me that these conversions do actual harm to Id/Activision/Splashdamage, and people certainly enjoy playing them.

I disagree with gerbil… Many of the RTCW maps play quite well in ET. Ice, village, base and sub are all still good fun in ET, and play a bit differently with the new ET classes and weapons.

(G0-Gerbil) #30

I disagree with gerbil… Many of the RTCW maps play quite well in ET. Ice, village, base and sub are all still good fun in ET, and play a bit differently with the new ET classes and weapons
Fairy nuff I spose - but they aren’t getting widespread play, and to be honest I won’t play 'em on principle anyway these days.
I still believe they aren’t suited to clan play in ET, which is why most of the maps were converted. Possibly that’s changing now since the best clan-play maps from RTCW have been done.

(DG) #31

But I believe people are converting RTCW maps under the misapprehension that they’ll automatically ‘be great in ET’ - which has so obviously been proved to be incorrect that I can’t see why people are still bothering…

<devil’s advocate>
lets delete a few key words…

But I beleive people are making custom maps for ET under the misapprehension that they’ll be great in ET - which has so obviously been proved to be incorrect that I can’t see why people are still bothering…
</devil’s advocate>

i’m going to be SO popular… :smiley:

the rtcw=et legal thing, I think confusion comes from umbrella copyright for both is owned by id Software, and since they say its OK within their game, why not between two of their games? Frankly, IMHO if it was assets moving from the free to the retail game, the whole “copyright issue” would be seen as utterly asinine. Cant say I read up all the fascinating copyright threads, but I’d have thought ID dont remotely give a shit even as it is. If I made Assault, I’d be well pleased someone liked it enough to birth it again in another game, provided I wasnt going to myself and credit was given - of course it’d be nice in principle if they asked, but in practice I probably would rather they didnt - since I most likely would not be able to reply without passing it through Legal who would probably give the stock response of “no”, simply because thats the one that is never going to get them fired.

Personally I agree completely that RTCW maps invariably (thus far) just dont work in ET. But then that’s not necessarily the main reason why they do it: “This for me has really been an incredible learning process”.

(SCDS_reyalP) #32

Cant say I read up all the fascinating copyright threads, but I’d have thought ID dont remotely give a shit even as it is.

It is more complex than that. If you don’t defend your copyrights, you may find yourself unable to defend them later when someone really rips you off. And FWIW, id has on occasion asked people to stop distributing things like this.

(chavo_one) #33

BTW, after combing through the pk3 file, it became obvious to me that you don’t know very much about mapping outside of imitating. And if you really wanted to hone your skills you wouldn’t copy a map made with 3 year old technology. Here are some things I noticed:

  1. All of the terrain shaders you are using are ripped straight out of the original RtCW map, and are therefore not using the current standards for terrain. They are unoptimized and vertex lit!
  2. The sky shader is hopelessly antiquated. Why not fix the light and make the map look BETTER than the original?
  3. You compiled the map with sdmap2, which is missing a whole year of development work by ydnar.
  4. You are using deprecated RtCW entities like props_decoration_scale and props_flamebarrel that digibob has advised against using based on the resulting network traffic.
  5. You are using func_statics instead of script_movers. There are lots of bugs with func_statics in ET.

As for the playability in ET…Axis trying to secure the flag between the gates while being bombarded by mortars? Allies defending the radar with rifle grenade cross-fire? Doesn’t sound like being axis will be too much fun.

Personally I don’t know why you are bothering. Leagues can’t use the maps for anything because of little problems like this

Source: http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=40&threadid=144420&page=2

(G0-Gerbil) #34

But then that’s not necessarily the main reason why they do it: “This for me has really been an incredible learning process”.
I’m afraid I’m much less likely to believe that learning is the reason, but even if so - he’s already admitted to ripping sub - he’s not learning anything new from ripping assault so isn’t it about time he did something original we can all play and use in leagues?

Now of course I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t ripped the ET maps and RTCW ones for my own perusal. But when I learnt something from them I tried to work out how to apply it to my maps. The way to learn is to do your own stuff. Take ideas from the best, but don’t carbon copy. If everyone copied there’d never be anything new…

BTW Chavo you make it sound like Assault was a pile of crap in RTCW :wink:

(chavo_one) #35

hehe, on the contrary, I was trying to point out it is a pile of crap in ET! :slight_smile:

I actually loved the map in RtCW!

(G0-Gerbil) #36

<devil’s advocate>
lets delete a few key words…

But I beleive people are making custom maps for ET under the misapprehension that they’ll be great in ET - which has so obviously been proved to be incorrect that I can’t see why people are still bothering…
</devil’s advocate>
Can’t believe I missed this first time round :slight_smile:
I dunno about anyone else but I map for myself. I try to do stuff to the best of my abilities, resources permitting. That others may like my map is cool - and more to the point I enjoy playing the maps I create which kind of is it’s own reward :slight_smile:
I don’t see how that can translate to ripping a map though?

(Moonkey) #37

It doesn’t, that’s why you didn’t rip it first I guess :slight_smile:
I can see why people do it though. People do miss the rtcw maps, and whether they translate well or not, people still want to play them in et. I was asked by a large group of people to do an assault port as well, but that’s not why I map either.
So while most people wouldn’t get a kick out of using someone else’s work, there are still people out there who are glad someone is doing it.