Motion Sickness

[FROST1]

I would’ve liked to put this thread in the ‘Off Topic’ section, of the regular Forum, because it
would be interesting to hear the opinions of more people, but since it’s a bit DB related, I rather
put it in here; besides, I think at the moment most devs are in this part of the forum anyways and
it might interest them as well; if not specifically for DB, then maybe in general.

Probably most of you guys have allready read a post from me were I lamented over motion-sickness.
Since a very long time I knew, that there are certain games(or sections of a game) wich let me
experience this extremely annoying feeling. The first game wich causes motion-sicknes(‘ms’ from here
on), was actually DooM(the original). But I overcame that feeling after a while, at least I could
play Quake with no problems.

I can’t really tell, what triggers this effect in particular, but I can say for certain, that it is
exclusive to 1st and 3rd person shooters(heard some guys had trouble playing Hotline Miami, but I
haven’t played it yet). Especially 3rd person shooters, but that may be a coincidence and is more
tied to the fact, that those 3rd person shooters I’m talking about were also console games(console
ports) and therefore have a pretty strange and clunky movement system.

But not only clunky controls are a problem, the exact opposite could be too; meaning super smooth
and super fast movement(TF2 for example). And DB has a bit of both; if you are just running
around(especially as 1st engie) the game is super fast and smooth(almost like floating), but
oppossed to that, the left/right inertia(strafeing delay) is quite spongy; and then you have this
reload bob, that allways boosts my sickness. Or head and hand animations wich are, more or less, disconnected from my actual inputs. That means, the whole time there is stuff happening, wich is totally “unnatural”. And as the article below says; maybe let my brain think I’m poisened and therefore tries to get that stuff out of my system in the fastest way possible…

I’ve made a “side by side” test with Brink and I’m not exaggerating things here; I’ve played a couple rounds of DB, got sick, made a pause(half hour), still felt a bit sick and noticed a
mild pounding behind my eye; angry, that I just can’t play DB I started Brink, just to be sure if my
problem is DB specific or not. And even though I haven’t completely recovered from my DB session, I
began to feel better and better whilst I play Brink, no s…t. The good news; I don’t have to give up
fps games, the bad news; I think I won’t be able to play DB on a regular basis, or as long as I’d
like.

Brink has a bit of strafeing delay/left-right-inertia, but only ~10%-~20% of that in DB. Also the
reload bob; Brink actually has one, but very, very subtle, only 10% of that in DB I’d guess. And
last but not least, the speed; a light Body in Brink feels like something between a medium and a
heavy body compared to the 1st engie in DB. And don’t get me wrong guys and devs, I do not have a
problem with those things by themselfs, it’s the effect those things have on me. Actually I like
view-bob, motion blur, reload-bob, the camera shaking when jumping up, or off of something, super
smooth and fast running, if it wouldn’t make me sick.

I don’t expect you guys to change anything of that(at least not drastically), because it is actually
cool stuff and part of the gameplay; I just wanted you to give you a clear picture of how I’m and
maybe some others experince them too. And since I’m here in the alpha and I don’t see me
contributing much gameplay related feedback in the future I thought I could cover this aspect of the
game.

What I really don’t like from a gameplay standpoint though is the strafeing delay(mentioned many
times, I know), the inability to interrupt animations and that the soldier does not automatically
switches back to the main weapon, after he threw his first grenade.

Other games I can’t play(or can’t in the past) because of ms;

[B]Doom/B; can play it now with no problems of course(it has also this floating like running)
Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow;(first game I’ve played on my first PC), not in every section of the game
Half Life 2; couldn’t play it when it came out, but haven’t experienced motion sickness when I
re-installed it 3 months ago
Mass Effect 3; only the multiplayer, and the ms(motion-sickness) wasn’t very strong. 3rd person and
fast mp movement cobbled with clunky controls is not a good combo
Dead Space; overcame the ms by setting my dpi on the mouse very high
Dead Space 2; experinced ms sometimes, but not as strong as in DS 1
TF2, I think mostly due to the speed.
Borderlands; sometimes/rarely, but only very, very mildly. I could really feel it in my stomach
sometimes when I jumped off of really high stuff. But I played the game for over 80hrs now and it
never went so far that it would’ve kept me from playing.

But to be frank, none of the games above had such a strong effect on me as DB.

Edit: I don’t know if SD reduced the reload bob on assault rifles in the current build, but it
appears to me as if they did, and it’s cool with me so far. BUT, for whatever reason, pistol
reloading is still a pain. That huge and slow bob is just too much. If it would be the SAW, I’d say
it’s ok, but like this…?

Intersting article about motion sickness in video games:

Are Playing Games Making You Feel Sick? Here's Why, and What to Do

But note that people wich are prone to ms like me don’t react to the same stuff as somebody else
with the same proneness might do. And despite of the common opinion, that you have to live with it,
I think you can overcome ms sometimes when you play a game, wich causes ms, frequently. I’ve read
about pilots wich eventually overcame their motion/simulator sickness after a while(some don’t of course). And I played yesterday(18.12.12)* the new build and I felt almost no probs. It is really hard to grab this stupid ms thing by the ears, but I hope, that I’ll eventually overcome it. Though, a bit of bob-reducing-help from SD would be very kind of course. On the other hand, I don’t want to demand something no one else seems to have a problem with.

*wrote this post a couple days as a txt doc.

[Smooth]

We’ll definitely be providing the option for people to disable things like reload camera-bob, movement bob, motion-blur etc. we just haven’t been able to get around to it just yet, sorry

[FROST1]

We’ll definitely be providing the option for people to disable things like reload camera-bob, movement bob, motion-blur etc. we just haven’t been able to get around to it just yet, sorry

If you/SD will actually provide those options in the final product, then I’ll shut my mouth from here on; no matter how far down the alpha-road those options will be implemented. Biggest grin of joy I can give you guys.

[Loffy]

Had no idea that motion sickness was such a problem. I am glad that I can enjoy, for example, Half-Life 2, without such problems. Intrigued by this, I had a quick look in the research databases and found nothing on PC games. There’s been some research on console video games (e.g., Xbox, PlayStation) however, and it confirms that such games can induce motion sickness in both children and adults. Interesting find: there are apparently some differences in the movement of the head and torso between participants who experience motion sickness and those who do not (Chang and others, 2012; and Stoffregen and others, 2012). Also, the research show that posture (sitting vs. standing) do not influence the incidence of sickness (Flanagan and others, 2008).

Chang and others. (2012). Postural activity and motion sickness during video game play in children and adults. Experimental Brain Research, 217 (2), pp. 299-309.

Flanagan and others. (2008). Postural instability and motion sickness in console video games. 14th International Conference on Perception and Action, pp. 115-118. Mahwah, NJ.

Stoffregen and others. (2008). Motion sickness and postural sway in console video games. [I]Human Factors, 50/I, pp. 322-331.

[Crispy]

You should also experiment with different FoV settings as I know some people get motion sickness within specific FoV ranges.

[MrEd]

Hey .FROST.,

Just wanted to let you know this hasn’t fallen off the radar and it’d be great if we can get to a point where you can enjoy DB without it inducing nausea and headaches. Thanks for splitting this off into a separate thread, it’ll help us track this better as we make our changes over time.

Edit: I don’t know if SD reduced the reload bob on assault rifles in the current build, but it
appears to me as if they did, and it’s cool with me so far. BUT, for whatever reason, pistol
reloading is still a pain. That huge and slow bob is just too much. If it would be the SAW, I’d say
it’s ok, but like this…?

[QUOTE=.FROST.;416513]
I played yesterday(18.12.12)* the new build and I felt almost no probs. It is really hard to grab this stupid ms thing by the ears, but I hope, that I’ll eventually overcome it. Though, a bit of bob-reducing-help from SD would be very kind of course. On the other hand, I don’t want to demand something no one else seems to have a problem with.

*wrote this post a couple days as a txt doc.[/QUOTE]

I was wondering how the latest changes would effect you, as you’ve probably noticed movement is a pretty hot topic in the Closed Alpha atm and last month we made a big list of things we want to look at. We finished the 1st pass on that and released it with the latest patches including snappier animation blends, increased player acceleration and a few other tweaks.

There are more to come so we’ll let you know when we make changes we think might be of help and please keep posting these updates as the feedback is invaluable.

But note that people wich are prone to ms like me don’t react to the same stuff as somebody else
with the same proneness might do. And despite of the common opinion, that you have to live with it,
I think you can overcome ms sometimes when you play a game, wich causes ms, frequently. I’ve read
about pilots wich eventually overcame their motion/simulator sickness after a while(some don’t of course).

[QUOTE=.FROST.;416513]
I would’ve liked to put this thread in the ‘Off Topic’ section, of the regular Forum, because it
would be interesting to hear the opinions of more people, but since it’s a bit DB related, I rather
put it in here[/QUOTE]

I think making a generalised community question on this without mentioning DB would be really useful actually. It’d be nice to have some more opinions on accessibility issues like this.

Other games I can’t play(or can’t in the past) because of ms;

Out of interest have you much experience playing the newer CoDs and BF3? A lot of the techniques we’re using are similar to them.

[mitsuhiko]

One thing that was noted (not sure who mentioned it) was that the blurring of the scoreboard in DB destroys your feeling of depth temporarily. I wonder if that affects your motion sickness.

[FROST1]

You should also experiment with different FoV settings as I know some people get motion sickness within specific FoV ranges.

Messed around a bit with the FOV, but it did not much for me. And I can say, it’s not the view-/reload-bob per se, it’s more about, how much the camera rocks(of course), and then, even more important, how fast/slow it does it. The faster the better; that’s why the bob on assault rifles is mostly ok for me now, but that on the pistols still isn’t.

PS: Watch this vid at 3:40. TB mentions how he feels he’s getting motion sick. He thinks it’s the FOV and maybe it is for him, but if you look at the vid you can also see this constant head bobing going on; I think that had caused him to experience ms. I can’t speak for him of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtKAm3nzg6I&list=UUy1Ms_5qBTawC-k7PVjHXKQ&index=4

[MrEd]

PS: Watch this vid…

Yeah that made my eyes hurt too - really jerky view bob and turning.

[FROST1]

One thing that was noted (not sure who mentioned it) was that the blurring of the scoreboard in DB destroys your feeling of depth temporarily. I wonder if that affects your motion sickness.

I definitely notice it in a negative way, also in the way as you’ve mentioned it, but it’s definitely not the main cause for my ms.

[MrEd]

Have you tried spectating yet .FROST.? I’d be interested to know if that’s any different for you to the player camera.

[iwound]

for me its always been bob. that gently sway going against the other wise flat static image.
i get instant relief from turning it off. fov can also have a small effect if set too extreme.

[FROST1]

Out of interest have you much experience playing the newer CoDs and BF3? A lot of the techniques we’re using are similar to them.

Nope, haven’t played any of those(devote Brink fanboy I am ), but I could allready see the ms potential(especially in the latest COD iteration) in the respective youtube vids; even before I started playing DB(wich made me more aware of my proneness to ms).

Have you tried spectating yet .FROST.? I’d be interested to know if that’s any different for you to the player camera.

Also nope; first thing I’ll do when I’m at home.

[tokamak]

One thing that was noted (not sure who mentioned it) was that the blurring of the scoreboard in DB destroys your feeling of depth temporarily. I wonder if that affects your motion sickness.

I have to say that that affects me as well.

[Humate]

Yep BC2 nearly made me vomit.
Uninstalled within the first 5 minutes of playing.

[tokamak]

Yeah same but that wasn’t due to motion sickness.

[SockDog]

Got to say that a low FOV makes me feel mildly claustrophobic.

In regards to motion sickness. I had an issue some years back with my ear which meant even subtle head movements felt like you was being pulled all over the place. The Doc basically packed me on the way after giving a diagnosis with some anti-nausea drugs and the simple advice that I try as often as I could, and in a safe place, to trigger the feeling so that my brain would learn to filter out the effect much like it manages to turn our eyesight upside down.

Basically I’m just wondering if you can try to power through it in the same way that kids get car sick but as you grow older you are less prone to it.

BTW - Not saying this is in anyway a reason to not have options to simply switch off functions that make people feel this way. Just expanding on the topic with a more long term view.

[FROST1]

OK, I think I found what actually let me feel sick and dizzy and it wasn’t necessarily motion sickness in the first place, even though head bob and stuff like that definitely contributed quite a bit to that. It was mainly the brightness and the contrast of my monitor and the fact, that the DB maps have many, many extreme bright areas/spots.

Though the numbers below won’t tell you very much, you may get an idea of how much I had to manipulate my screen and the ingame brightness to finally feel comfortable to at least 80%.

I reduced my screen brightness to 20% and the contrast also to 20%; before that I had 80% brightness and 40% contrast, wich may not have been optimal in the first place. And in order to balance the reduction of screen brightness I’ve increased the ingame brightness from default 2.2 to now2.5. My graphic card is set with an average brightness at around 50%(didn’t changed anything there).

As I’ve said, those numbers are fairly individual, since they are tied to my specific set up. But what they do show(at least I think they do) is, that DB would benefit from a bit of “brightness reduction”(don’t know how to call it else).

For example, you run out of a underground garage and suddenly you stare at a extreme white wall, then add all that bobing and the fast pace of the game on top of that* and “sensitive” guys like me feel very, very bad, very quickly. And that also explains, why I have no trouble with Brink; that game is simply darker in general and has no such extreme bright spots like DB. It’s more even lit in general, even night maps like Refuel; there are no such extreme bright areas in Refuel like in White Chapel for example. I don’t know, but even the “newest” Brink maps, Founders Tower and Labs, wich are quite bright, aren’t as bright as Waterloo, London Bridge and the bright spots in White Chapel.

• No prob of course, if that would happen from time to time, but you run out of shadows into the brightness and back again almost every 2secs. Or you just look from the shadow into the light, that’s basically the same.

PS: I have an 3D monitor and therefore it’s pretty bright by default. Though until now I had no problems with its brightness and therefore that was the last thing I thought about. Mitsuhiko’s hint was a hint in the right direction. Even though it wasn’t the FOV that causes my issues, it made me think in the right direction.

My desktop is now pretty dark though, because it’s not possible to merely decrease the brightness in DB’s option menu since I wouldn’t see anything in the dark areas then. I think a gamma bar, or contrast bar would help to utterly control the ingame brightness without touching your monitor or GPU settings. One should be abel to dim the bright white areas whilst lighting up the darker areas, so one can balance the brightness properly.

[FROST1]

The first two pics are taken at White Chapel and may not be very good examples but I loaded them up nevertheless. The spot on the wall is so bright, you can’t even see it’s actual texture. It looks very convincing and realistic, but the problem is, peoples eyes have to constantly adjust for that. Closeing the Iris, to filter bright light, open the Iris to let more light in, in order to see stuff in the dark. And then looking back into a bright white spot on the wall with your Iris all wide open and so on and so on.

Screenshot 3 and 4 are showing a bit better what I meant in my previous post. The two pics are only 2 seconds apart from each other. The boardwalk is extremely bright and the dark corner on the second screenshot is, well, quite dark. That may not even be a huge problem if you’d just stroll around like in an RPG, but DB is a fast paced shooter and such huge and frequent changes in brightness can result in headaches and dizziness, and cobbled with view bob and camera shaking, also in severe motion sickness.

I’m very glad, that I figured that out eventually and I played enough over the last 2 days, so I can be quite sure, that that was actually the main cause of all the trouble I had with DB over the last weeks. Though that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t appreciate tick boxes in the options menu for every kind of view bob.

I would like to know, if it would be possible to not only change the overall brightness (wich you allready can), but if it would also be possible, to implement some kind of “darkness/gamma bar” to light up the dark areas a bit. Since it’s only a half win if you can dim the brightness and as a trade off couldn’t see anything that crawls in the dark.

[FROST1]

1st Part

I played a bit around with the video settings again and I was quite astounded, that I could pull the brightness indicator completely to the left and there were still spots wich were retina burning bright. I took some screenshots(below) and wanted to post and comment them, cause I found it quite strange, that I could do nothing to dim those spots(of course did I switch off everything with the word light in it and also Bloom). I had no time to write it immediately and so I postponed it till now.

Sorry, had to make this in two parts, because I could only post 5 pics per post. 2nd part on the next page.