molotov observation

(capriRocket) #1

i play sparks 90% of the time so im mostly out of direct combat and didnt spend much thought on the molotov mechanics.
ive spent the last 10h or so playing thunder, because new merc etc.

what i noticed is that players that normally wouldnt stand a chance can get easy kills with molotovs, its basically a guaranteed kill.

why?

-throws and explodes fast
-can be cooked infinitely
-spreads instantly
-high DoT
-short cooldown, supported by stoker having extra supplies on most loadouts.
-short cooldown on throw cancel

why am i bringing this up?

because i dont think any ability should be a guaranteed kill.
i believe the molotov is too easy to use and could be changed so that players had to actually time or aim their throws more precisely.

if youre on a 80hp merc you pretty much die instantly.
on a higher hp merc you can longjump out of the flames and survive but that stoker will fill you with bullets during that time wich results in a kill anyway. he knows you cannot retaliate.

there was a similar “problem” back when fragger had 2 nades.
some people that couldnt face me in a firefight used to throw one grenade which i could dodge. then i didnt know when to peek again and sometimes the second grenade would land right in my face.

it was a cheesy tactic to just spam 2 nades at the enemy mvp to get him out of the way, i think this is also a reason why it was changed to one grenade.

i got close to 400h down in DB.
its not like a dont know i could back off as soon as i see a stoker but when i think about it, there is no ability you cannot dodge in this game except the cheesy molotov.

of course the stoker free rotation doesnt help the situation haha.
what are your thoughts on it?

(disclaimer): i dont intend to whine or change the game here.
actually i couldnt care less as i only play this game once in two weeks maybe.

ps: if i compare molotovs to thunders flashbang i just feel that getting 1-5 guaranteed kills with one throw, PLUS bonus area denial is way better than a flashbang that may or may not blind some enemies, and then i also need to run in there and mow em down one by one and risk my life.

(i know thunder can be a beast, ive killed 5 enemies with one flash and one mag of his new LMG but molotovs are way more consistent, plus you get unlimited ammo on stoker.)

(SiegeFace) #2

Problem is the area of effect is always massively different. I throw one it covers 10px the enemy throws one it fills an entire room… just my observation. Also sparks gets instakilled with no time to react if stoker rubs one out…just something else ive noticed

(Sir_Slam) #3

Extra supplies doesn’t effect Molotov.

(LifeupOmega) #4

Maybe you should play Stoker, because you’re missing the point of the molotov, and you also think its affected by Extra Supplies. You need to get a direct hit to guarantee the kill anyway.

If we’re talking about low cooldown, low risk abilities, how’s that Rev Gun?

Yeah, like those frag nades, the grenade launcher, Fletcher’s stickies, well placed airstrikes, orbital lasers and artillery, or a clean headshot from Vas. They can all effectively one shot you with zero counterplay too, yet somehow you think a 40 second area denial cooldown that gets wasted on one person is the issue?

Never had an issue with Stoker as it is, no matter the merc I play.

(capriRocket) #5

oh theres reasons i main sparks, unlimited damage and health is a good one :stuck_out_tongue:

frags require more aim and you cant cook them and walk around the whole map till you find an enemy.
GL announces itself, you normally dont die off one GL hit.
stickies, lazer, artillery, airstrike also announce themself.
sniper headshot can be prevented by proper positioning and gamesense.

i never had an issue with stoker, issue would be an overstatement, it is just an observation.
i will prolly start playing stoker myself a bit more and abuse it heavily, its just not pretty.

(Jostabeere) #6

[quote=“LifeupOmega;115100”]

Yeah, like those frag nades, the grenade launcher, Fletcher’s stickies, well placed airstrikes, orbital lasers and artillery, or a clean headshot from Vas. They can all effectively one shot you with zero counterplay too, yet somehow you think a 40 second area denial cooldown that gets wasted on one person is the issue?

Never had an issue with Stoker as it is, no matter the merc I play.[/quote]
You forgot mines. You can’t dodge them without longjumping over them or with Enigma.

The molotov deals 50 dmg on hit, and 40 per second. Every merc who didn’t get hit has 2+ secs to jump away that relatively small area before the molotov actually spreads out in those 2 seconds.

  • it has a very long cooldown for such a small AoE.
(Drcipres) #7

The molotov is to block doorways, you can kill with it, but maybe 1 or 2, or maybe anyone, tanky class can wall jump out of the fire, and the cooldown is very long, the second longest I think in the game, just play him and you will notice he isnt OP

(Grave_Knight) #8

[quote=“Jostabeere;115111”][quote=“LifeupOmega;115100”]

Yeah, like those frag nades, the grenade launcher, Fletcher’s stickies, well placed airstrikes, orbital lasers and artillery, or a clean headshot from Vas. They can all effectively one shot you with zero counterplay too, yet somehow you think a 40 second area denial cooldown that gets wasted on one person is the issue?

Never had an issue with Stoker as it is, no matter the merc I play.[/quote]
You forgot mines. You can’t dodge them without longjumping over them or with Enigma.

The molotov deals 50 dmg on hit, and 40 per second. Every merc who didn’t get hit has 2+ secs to jump away that relatively small area before the molotov actually spreads out in those 2 seconds.

  • it has a very long cooldown for such a small AoE.[/quote]

Untrackable. Enigma is the one that reduces spotted time.

(LifeupOmega) #9

130 damage on demand with no cooldown with basic aim requirements is far more abusable than Stoker ever will be to be fair.

[quote=“capriRocket;115106”]frags require more aim and you cant cook them and walk around the whole map till you find an enemy.
GL announces itself, you normally dont die off one GL hit.
stickies, lazer, artillery, airstrike also announce themself.
sniper headshot can be prevented by proper positioning and gamesense.[/quote]

To essentially instantly kill someone with a molotov you need a direct hit and no less though, you’re looking at 50 direct + 40 in the next second. That’s going to kill Proxy and below, who are all susceptible to a direct nade (thrown and lactic), sticky, or mine anyway. Anyone else has ample time to get away from the area before it even has a chance to spread.

With your other points; if you fight good opponents you’ll barely ever see the call down from the field ops mercs, and I’m gonna be assuming good players 'cause balancing for pubs is a one way ticket to a boring stale game. On top of that a good sniper is someone who you will always be fighting, they won’t be sticking in one place and will more often than not be with the other players, and they will know where you are at any given time.

Everything can be “abused” in a way that your opponent has next to no chance at countering you, it’s the same with Stoker, and a good Stoker won’t be wasting his molotov on killing a lone player.

[quote=“capriRocket;115106”]i never had an issue with stoker, issue would be an overstatement, it is just an observation.
i will prolly start playing stoker myself a bit more and abuse it heavily, its just not pretty[/quote]

Pubs aren’t balanced anyway, abuse away. Most people are too dumb to stop running into it anyway. If there’s anything to go off that’s abusable with him though it’s doorway blocking with your station and then burning a team who try to walk through it.

(capriRocket) #10

actually i shouldnt have brought up the word “abuse” and im certainly not going to run around and waste molotovs on single enemies.

my whole point was that molotovs seem cheesy because they come suddenly, require no skill/aim/timing and instantly kill aura, sparks, proxy, and kira.

im going to have stoker in my squad for now and see how it goes.

i dont want to imply hes op, my point is that if SD keeps adding abilities with damage potential of instant kills but skill requirements of zero, then the game is heading into a very worrying state.

RE: spreads slow, it spreads to full in one second, in my game anyway.

i keep observing, thanks for the replies.

(Szakalot) #11

I’m not entirely sure, but it does feel like being in the molotov slows you down. Its not always trivial to escape. Also, flames can sometimes spread unpredictably in your direction, I’d often lose 80+hp without getting a direct hit even after longjumping away as soon as I see the stoker is about to throw.

Definitely agree that the damage is a tad on the high side, considering how extremely useful stoker already is with area denial.

(capriRocket) #12

another observation: molotov is probably the least consistent ability of all.
the spread can be so random, even the location and time it impacts.

i had some pretty interesting… well more like ridiculous things happen today and i didnt have any lag spikes.

still unsure if its a problem with jump throws or if the throw arc is just very different to frags and stickies. perhaps its just easier for the engine to let a projectile bounce around and/or explode after X time, compared to an instant explosion on impact.

(cornJester) #13

Another thread where they complain about skilled Stokers getting direct hits for fast kills. It’s only a “guaranteed kill” if you hit them with a skilled throw. Nerf skill!

(GregHouseMD) #14

I’m not sure why cooking frags is considered a drawback. A well-cooked and well-placed frag grenade is impossible to dodge, and it is a guaranteed kill. Molotovs would not become weaker if you could cook them to explode when desired, or if they bounced off walls.

(Szakalot) #15

its the other way around. If Fragger nades had 1sec fuse time they would be incredibly OP. At any point during a fight fragger could blast your face with an instanade.

(GregHouseMD) #16

its the other way around. If Fragger nades had 1sec fuse time they would be incredibly OP. At any point during a fight fragger could blast your face with an instanade. [/quote]

I’m not sure what you mean here.

What I’m referring to is the fact Fragger can time his grenades to go off when he wants them to, without having to rely on direct hits, or hitting the terrain - and he can bounce them.

(Szakalot) #17

you claim that a molotov that has to be cooked wouldnt be a nerf. For example, a molotov with a 4 sec fuse time, like Fragger nades.

Reversing this thought exercise shows how much better molotov is currently. Imagine a Fragger nade that only had 1 sec of cooking time. Whenever fragger doesn’t like the way a fight is going, he pulls out a nade, throws it at you mid-fight, and blasts you to pieces before you can react.
The fact that fragger has to cook the nade is not an advantage, it is a nerf. It decreases fragger’s DPS (because he HAS to cook to use nades, and while cooking can’t shoot)

If molotov had to be cooked people would kill the stokers while they wait for their nade to be ready.

(capriRocket) #18

obesrvation#3:
i believe theres a crash related to molotovs, never used to crash but now it does every now and then after throwing one.

obesrvation#4:
molotovs can be shot down in midair by projectiles. it will drop straight down where the projectile hits it.
works with GL rounds, i assume same goes for frags or stickies etc.
i gotta try hitting one with the reviver.

(Captain_Forward) #19

@capriRocket
It works with concussion grenade. I throwed one once in mid-fight with enemy Stoker and hit his molotov just above me. Both projectiles exploded and I finished blind and covered in fire.
Pain and shame, both at once.

([WAR]Larknok1) #20

40 seconds isn’t short.
“Can’t avoid it.” Learn to long-jump. You never have to worry about them again.
“Cooked infinitely” – false. More like no cooking with instant explosion on contact.

Listen guys, it’s easy to avoid. If you see Stoker and you haven’t verified that he’s used his ability, get ready to dodge it. It’s really not that hard to dodge, as it cannot air-burst like a Frag can. Even if he lands it near you – a single well-placed knife-swap long-jump away guarantees your safety.