Modeling questions & screenshots - looking 4 info &

(CptnTriscuit) #1

I’m trying to get reasonably competent at modeling (still got a looooong way to go :wink: ) and need some forum wisdom and feedback. I’m trying to create an approximation of an 88mm artillery gun, so over the weekend I opened up 3dMax and got to work…and now its Monday and here’s what I have:

Models for normal / damaged states

In game
Modeled in Max, used ChilliSkinner for texture coordinates and Photoshop for textures - exported it in 5 separate pieces and assembled them with NPherno’s MD3compiler. I did search the SD forums, the editor documentation and some other places for these answers…just couldn’t find em’. On with the questions:

1.) In Max, each model has 710 vertices, 790 faces; is this too high? I know there can be an increased number in the exported md3, so it may be higher in ET, which brings me to my next question.

2.) How can I get a poly count for the model once its in radiant/in-game?

3.) If the count is too high, could the LOD system be used here to lighten the load? Should I use LOD regardless?

4.) Because I broke the model up early on, the final model in radiant draws its textures from 5 different TGA’s ranging from 128x128 to 512x512 - is this bad practice?

5.) Should I exclude recoil animation frames in favor of performance if I use LOD?

6.) Do the models look crappy?

Any answers / bit of modeling wisdom / feedback / useful links would be highly appreciated ^^ :banana:

(MadJack) #2

I don’t know squat about modeling but I know that I use tris count as a reference when chosing models I find here and there. I will usually stay away from models over 5000 tris and even then I think it’s a bit on the high side. It depends a lot on the model and what you want to do with it. I found a really nice jeep the other day. When I say the number of tris I almost cried, over 48 000 tris. My WHOLE map has about that!

Your model looks really awesome! Though there’s something … I wouldn’t say wrong but maybe odd about the broken one… I think it looks too shiny… I don’t know… The barrel doesn’t look broken enough? hehe

Anyway, you did a great job and hopefully someone will answer your other questions :slight_smile:

(=DaRk=CrAzY-NuTTeR) #3

1.) In Max, each model has 710 vertices, 790 faces; is this too high? I know there can be an increased number in the exported md3, so it may be higher in ET, which brings me to my next question.

I think that is fine, im not 100% sure, if it works in-game then it works, leave it :slight_smile:

2.) How can I get a poly count for the model once its in radiant/in-game?

no idea

3.) If the count is too high, could the LOD system be used here to lighten the load? Should I use LOD regardless?

wtf is the LOD system?

4.) Because I broke the model up early on, the final model in radiant draws its textures from 5 different TGA’s ranging from 128x128 to 512x512 - is this bad practice?

if it works then no

5.) Should I exclude recoil animation frames in favor of performance if I use LOD?

i dont know what LOD is so im not gona answer

6.) Do the models look crappy?

no no no - they pwn all :smiley:

(joop sloop) #4

Watch the 2nd episode of band of brothers, after the beach landing they destroy three 88’s maybe you can get some usefull ideas as to how 88’s looked and were used in the war from that?
Cause I don’t really think that a broken gun doesn’t have such an oddly bent gunbarrel after an explosion :wink:

(FireFly) #5

710 verts isn’t too much.
I think the game engine can handle models with 1000 verts or less.
If you exceed that amount you get an error message and the map won’t load.
However if you have a model with over 1000 verts you can avoid the error by splitting up the model into 2 or 3 parts so there’s no need to use the LOD system.

(CptnTriscuit) #6

Thanks for the replies thus far. A more damaged looking barrel is in the works, but I don’t want the gun looking too destroyed. I suppose that statement warrants an explanation: The guns (there are going to be 2 in the map) are not going to be simple dynamite objectives - they are technically constructibles that “start built” (but there is a bug with this objflag so there are no supply boxes and engineers use their magic pliers directly on the gun) and can be damaged by TNT or satchel charges. Once they are damaged there is a countdown and if they are not repaired in time a plane will “fly” over and make a big boom.
If I wasn’t getting a socket error while trying to connect to planetwolfenstein I there would be a pic to illustrate.

I will re-export the models in from 3dmax and assemble them better, so that both the normal and damaged versions will share the same “base”. I’ll make a different texture for the damaged version of the shinny section of the barrel too. (I did see that battle in Band of Brothers and did consider making the gun barrel splinter apart like that - but I didn’t think it would look right as you cant shove your TNT down the barrel in ET :P)

LOD = Level of Detail, check out this thread:
http://www.splashdamage.com/index.php?name=pnPHPbb2&file=viewtopic&t=7113

As for poly count of the model in-game/in radiant, I don’t know if its possible either, some of the threads I was rooting through referenced checking the count in radiant; or maybe I was just half-asleep. I did check it out with /r_speeds and it does cause a noticeable ‘jump’ (3,000-ish), but I don’t think thats a “back to the drawing board” problem; but I’m no VIS whiz, so maybe it is (what’s with the rhyming?) and should try LOD. Well, I’ll try LOD anyways because I haven’t done it before. Okay, enough thinking out loud, err… typing. I’ll shut up now.

Danke!

(NOP) #7

If you used the polygon counter utility to count the tris in max then the count might not be what you think. If you used a poly for your model(or parts of it) the polygon counter counts just the number of polygons on the model not the triangles(which is what you want). For example if you have a pentagon surface somewhere in your model, it will be counted as 1 face instead of 3 triangles as you might suspect. To get the true triangle count you can convert your model to a mesh and then use the polygon counter again.(unless of course your model was a mesh from the start in which case ignore the above)

If you really wanna get picky about it you can also check it in game by putting the model in an empty room and checking the r_speeds with cg_draw2d 0 and con_drawnotify 1.
The empty room by itself is about 350 triangles so whatever you get above that is the tris count for the model.

(CptnTriscuit) #8

I got the vertices /face count in max by selecting the mesh group, right-clicking and selecting ‘properties’, I didn’t know about that utility but just found it. 790 is still the number, luckily everything was already converted to mesh, but thanks for the heads up; I didn’t know that polygons would throw off the triangle count.

I do :smiley:
I’ll give the empty room a go (I thought maybe there was a Radiant plug-in or something)

Thanks NOP very helpful! :clap:

(No1_sonuk) #9

Watch the 2nd episode of band of brothers, after the beach landing they destroy three 88’s maybe you can get some usefull ideas as to how 88’s looked and were used in the war from that?

They were 105s, not 88s.

CptnTriscuit:
I have a 2300 poly MG34 that uses FIVE 1024x1024 skins and it works fine.
You need to keep each group in your model under 1000 polys or vertices (I can never remember which), but the model file can break that.

(joop sloop) #10

No1_sonuk, you mean they used 105’s during filming and pretended they were 88’s?

(No1_sonuk) #11

No. The Line, AFTER the raid, from Winters was something like “They were 105s, sir, not 88s”.
FlAK 88s don’t have muzzle brakes on them like the ones in the episode.

(FireFly) #12

Below is a link from the canceled ET single player version.
It seems that the player had to blow up a 88mm gun…

(joop sloop) #13

Thanks for clearing that up no1_sonuk, I must have missed that when I watched that episode :wink:

(CptnTriscuit) #14

Is the size of the gun in that pic accurate?

Im trying to be as efficient as I can.

Do you have a pic of your MG34?

(SiliconSoul) #15

I have a 2300 poly MG34 that uses FIVE 1024x1024 skins and it works fine.

Isn’t the limit 512x512? I read somewhere that the engine will break larger size files down.

(No1_sonuk) #16

It doesn’t complain:

Check out our images page for more pics, plus a 3d-viewable model.
http://pop.rtcwfiles.com/index.php?p=images

(Hewster) #17

Very nice Mr.Triscuit :slight_smile:

In my experience, if you “convert to patch” then “convert to mesh” then use the polycounter, it will show the correct polycount
as for max polys, it all depends on the complexity of the scene you are putting them in, but I would say 750 is gona be fine.

I once read a post by ydnar that explained the engine is more efficient if it gets all the texture info from 1 texture

Is the recoil animation vertex animation ? if so, perhaps you could change it to a script mover, this way you can still use LOD

@No1_sonuk, your model looks great, but 5 * 1024 x 1024 !! presuming none of the shaders are alpha’a, I make that 15Mb of
texture data for 1 model… To me that seems a little excessive… looks good though :slight_smile:

Hewster

(Ifurita) #18

very nice weapons modeling - like the 3D rotational views

(Hewster) #19

ok forund the thread where Ydnar talks about the advantages of fitting multiple textures into 1 actual texture :slight_smile:
http://www.splashdamage.com/index.php?name=pnPHPbb2&file=viewtopic&t=1184&highlight=renderer

(Ragnar_40k) #20

Deployed (ready to fire) the 8,8 cm Flak 41 took a size of 9,658m x 2,4m x 2x36m (length x width x heigth). The gun barrel had a length of 6,548m over all. So the dimension seem to be Ok (assuming the woman is at about 1,6m tall).