Missing forward spawns makes map balancing more difficult

(Cankor) #1

IMO SD sort of shot themselves in the foot by removing the whole forward spawn mechanic. It was a very useful method to give the attacking players an offensive bias, but still allow the defensive players time to set up an initial defense.

I’m not sure why it was removed, I guess to simply the game and lower the learning curve? maybe the desire to remove /kill is related, don’t know…

So now it seems they always need to have the defenders spawn closer so the defense can get there first and set up, and the only tool left to balance for an offensive bias is the spawn timer. Or i guess CP locations can be used as well, but if their buffs are eliminated from comp then that goes down the drain*.

It makes me sad, and I really miss the spawning system from ETQW :frowning:

*did anyone stop to think that eliminating CP buffs hurts the offense more than the defense and contributes to the defensive bias? Maybe not such a good idea to remove them (or are they back in and I’m behind the times?)

(Evil-Doer) #2

Lot of moves are being made just to see how it works I suppose…But personally thinking a lot of the decisions are doing more damage.

Basically if you up the Defense spawn times a tad, you fix a lot of issues, for instance Aquarium- You place the charge and they can spawn practically twice and have multiple chances to come down and completely dominate you.

(matsy) #3

I liked how in RTCW and ET you had capture-able spawns through the flag mechanism and then in ETQW it took this mechanism and made it in to something similar but yet so different. I think it would be nice to have some of the future DLC maps having this features, I also think that each mechanism is suitable for certain scenarios.

(Smokeskin) #4

[QUOTE=Cankor;327343]
*did anyone stop to think that eliminating CP buffs hurts the offense more than the defense and contributes to the defensive bias? Maybe not such a good idea to remove them[/QUOTE]

I don’t think there went any tactical consideration into it. The rules were probably made to remove anything that would interfere with the “it is all about the 1v1 skillz” mentality. Imagine some pro losing a skirmish only because his team didn’t cap a CP, that’s totally unfair to his ego :slight_smile:

I don’t think you can underestimate this influence. Just look at how one of the most common complaints is the CoF because it allows “lesser” players to compete.

(.Chris.) #5

I liked how forward spawns and secondary spawns allowed for more interesting map design and more dynamic playing experience, I can see why they chose not to use them for Brink as it’s almost meant as a sort of introduction for those not familiar with this type of game and as such they wanted to keep things relatively simple but I hope they make a return in a sequel to spice things up.

I think those who have learned what Brink is about from playing it a long while will be able to grasp the concept of forward spawns and secondary spawn points in a future title.

(Ragoo) #6

Why in a future title only .Chris.? Maybe the DLC maps will have it and if not, once we get an SDK (IF we get one) I hoped you would make a cool map with forward spawns :slight_smile:

(prophett) #7

Capturable spawn points/command posts were pretty exciting in Enemy Territory and add a nice dynamic to the game. Would love to see this for Brink.

“We’ve captured the Old City”
“They’ve reclaimed the Old City”
“We’ve captured the Old City”
“They’ve reclaimed the Old City”
“We’ve captured the Old City”
“They’ve reclaimed the Old City”

Some epic flag battles on that map :]

(matsy) #8

[QUOTE=prophe+;328675]Capturable spawn points/command posts were pretty exciting in Enemy Territory and add a nice dynamic to the game. Would love to see this for Brink.

“We’ve captured the Old City”
“They’ve reclaimed the Old City”
“We’ve captured the Old City”
“They’ve reclaimed the Old City”
“We’ve captured the Old City”
“They’ve reclaimed the Old City”

Some epic flag battles on that map :][/QUOTE]

I would hate to think how much time I spent running around that map!

(Mattc0m) #9

I would love to see capturable spawns make a comeback!

(Cankor) #10

Too me this is one reason Brink isn’t as fun as ETQW, and even ET. Those capturable spawn points were a huge part of what made those games great. I don’t think it’s going to far to say they were a keystone around which the maps were designed, and without them the new maps in Brink just aren’t as exciting.

Also, on the same subject, I really dislike the discontinuity from throwing the cut scene in there between objectives and having the attackers start back at spawn again. It’s like two different games almost.

(Kendle) #11

[QUOTE=Smokeskin;328505]I don’t think there went any tactical consideration into it. The rules were probably made to remove anything that would interfere with the “it is all about the 1v1 skillz” mentality. Imagine some pro losing a skirmish only because his team didn’t cap a CP, that’s totally unfair to his ego :slight_smile:

I don’t think you can underestimate this influence. Just look at how one of the most common complaints is the CoF because it allows “lesser” players to compete.[/QUOTE]

I think that’s probably about as far from the truth as it’s possible to get. I’d imagine most comp players want forward spawns (and /kill) as they’re both key mechanics in ET.

The idea of forward spawns (in ET at least) is that they’re re-capturable by defense. In Brink spawns have built-in non-destructible turrets to keep the other team out, that’s one of Brinks new ideas (tho don’t tell Frozen Sand who put turrets in spawns to keep the other team out in Urban Terror 10 years ago), so having forward spawns would be tricky (you couldn’t put a turret in a forward spawn cos then it wouldn’t be re-capturable, but if you didn’t Joe Newb who’s just bought his first online shooter would get spawn-raped by any half decent player and we can’t make the game too hard for Joe Newb, can we).

(.Chris.) #12

Thing is, in ET:QW when I ported Radar so many none ET players were so confused by the fact you could capture the energy cell/radar parts before completing the shield generator/main entrance as none of the stock maps allowed sequence breaking like this. I thinking adding back forward spawns and such may have the same effect on Brink players. That’s why I feel they should be only added by Splash Damage in either a future title or an Expansion Pack that also contains reintroduces other ET and ET:QW staples.

ET:QW had the spawn turrets also and that contained capturable spawn points. (Not a ‘new’ SD idea)

I do think that’s kind of the reasoning though for the turrets and the absence of forward spawns. Brink was meant to have wide appeal to entice players from other shooters to give objective team based a try, an introductory game of sorts if you like. ET:QW overwhelmed the average joe so they took a step back and tried making it a bit more basic to lure in the masses. Hopefully in the next title they expand the game a little to add back these missing elements as one would hope that folk ‘get’ what this kind of game entails.

Here’s hoping.

(prophett) #13

[QUOTE=.Chris.;329136]Thing is, in ET:QW when I ported Radar so many none ET players were so confused by the fact you could capture the energy cell/radar parts before completing the shield generator/main entrance as none of the stock maps allowed sequence breaking like this. I thinking adding back forward spawns and such may have the same effect on Brink players. That’s why I feel they should be only added by Splash Damage in either a future title or an Expansion Pack that also contains reintroduces other ET and ET:QW staples.
[/QUOTE]

Great port, It is too bad custom content didn’t work out too well for pubs :<

(Zarlor) #14

If forward spawns never make a return in brink, then at least they could tweak the respawn timers so that the defense has a longer one than the offense. Sometimes the defense spawns almost on top of the objective while the offense has such a long run usually.

Cank says that the forward spawns is one of the reasons Brink isn’t as fun as ETQW was for him. I must say that I think the mechanic where you could finish someone else’s plant, or where you could see the disarm progress really heightened the tension in the game. I also think that by disabling chat by default killed the ability to meet new players, but I digress…

(DonkeyDong) #15

you mean lesser players now have the equivelent of the special olympics…

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

i suppose thats what brink is

(Mattc0m) #16

[QUOTE=DonkeyDong;329537]you mean lesser players now have the equivelent of the special olympics…

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

i suppose thats what brink is[/QUOTE]

Dude, come on. Brink competition is just not for the top tier, you need a big number of teams. A “hardcore” community of 10, 12 teams will not work. You’ve got to embrace the larger community, and this type of attitude is a bit pathetic (as well as completely destroying any chance at growing the scene).

Please smarten up a bit, too, posts that bring nothing to the table but insults are considered “flamebait”, which isn’t exactly acceptable discussion.

(Cankor) #17

[QUOTE=Zarlor;329303]
Cank says that the forward spawns is one of the reasons Brink isn’t as fun as ETQW was for him. I must say that I think the mechanic where you could finish someone else’s plant, or where you could see the disarm progress really heightened the tension in the game. I also think that by disabling chat by default killed the ability to meet new players, but I digress…[/QUOTE]

Get out of my head, I just posted almost identical comments (re the objectives and VoIP as opposed to chat) on the Brink PC improvements thread or whatever that one is that is stickied!

Part four of my four part Brink Blog is shaping up in my mind: “Brink Disimprovements”.

(Decayed) #18

I think the CP buffs might be interesting for comp. While there is no forward spawn, it might force defensive teams to quit turtling as much since and upgraded cp could give 2 more health pips, and even the supply pips could give some advantage. Although, this was removed by default by SD, so I guess they didn’t think CP buffs were part of their balanced equation.

(wolfnemesis75) #19

[QUOTE=.Chris.;328520]I liked how forward spawns and secondary spawns allowed for more interesting map design and more dynamic playing experience, I can see why they chose not to use them for Brink as it’s almost meant as a sort of introduction for those not familiar with this type of game and as such they wanted to keep things relatively simple but I hope they make a return in a sequel to spice things up.

I think those who have learned what Brink is about from playing it a long while will be able to grasp the concept of forward spawns and secondary spawn points in a future title.[/QUOTE]

Or perhaps this mechanic can be introduced in the form of DLC later on? It’d be a cool concept and a change-up.