Mines and Turrets

(INF3RN0) #1

Self arming vs manual arming. I advocating that they require manual arming of 1-3 seconds. I’ve seen both mines and turrets dropped in the middle of a gun fight and effectively save someone from being killed. This is a balance issue in that engineers already have a gun, side arm, and grenade- where as mines and turrets are a tactical tool.

Also these to add:

  1. Knife knocks turrets down in one-hit
  2. Turret hitbox (for being knocked over) should be increased slightly
  3. Turrets should deal less damage
  4. Mines should have a slower detonation
(EnderWiggin.DA.) #2

I prefer manual arming as well. The only caveat is that spawns for the maps I have played are generally very close and the arming time needs to be balanced for that to make mines useful as a tactical tool and not have enemies on top of the engie before he can arm one mine.
The blue dot for friendly mines that can be see through walls. Like it!

  1. You also have to avoid the COD/BC2 knife lunge where a player is willing to take minor damage just to one shot someone or something (the turret) with the knife. I really hate that mechanic.
    In general if there are going to be turrets in the game (not a huge fan personally), I would prefer that they be balanced so they cannot block an offensive path by themselves. This includes the damage/placement positions of the turrets as well as the number of players that can place them.
    4.I’m fine with the detonation time but I would like to try a 2 mine limit per engie.

/I don’t feel I can comment on #2 and 3 because I haven’t gotten to play on a full server yet.

(amazinglarry) #3

Either the turrets should deal less damage, or their rate of fire should be decreased. I’ve had a couple of instances now where I’ve been being shot by a turret and I’ve literally stopped moving due to the slowdown of being shot.

Whatever the fix is, it needs to be toned down just a smidge. Not to mention the fact that if you’ve been locked on to, it feels like moving behind an obstruction and then coming back into it’s line of sight doesn’t seem to reset its ‘targeting acquisition timer’. I feel like it starts shooting before I come back around the corner.

(Humate) #4

Turrets - a bit frustrating, although I havent played engie2 in a proper match to see it from the other side.
I’d imagine SD have an anti-turret / anti-mine class in store, if they keep them the way they are.
Or another possibility is a temp unlock(do they exist in DB?) where youre immune to turrets and mines.

I agree with mines having slower detonation.

(stealth6) #5

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;411628]Self arming vs manual arming. I advocating that they require manual arming of 1-3 seconds. I’ve seen both mines and turrets dropped in the middle of a gun fight and effectively save someone from being killed. This is a balance issue in that engineers already have a gun, side arm, and grenade- where as mines and turrets are a tactical tool.

Also these to add:

  1. Knife knocks turrets down in one-hit
  2. Turret hitbox (for being knocked over) should be increased slightly
  3. Turrets should deal less damage
  4. Mines should have a slower detonation[/QUOTE]

I don’t think they need to be armed, I don’t really see what that would add to the gameplay. If somebody drops one in a gun fight you could shoot it, 3 shots and the thing will explode in his face…
If he drops it while your in pursuit you can ignore it since it takes a few seconds to arm.

  1. Agree
  2. Agree - although not strictly necessary
  3. Don’t agree, turrets damage is fine as is, but the audio warning should be clear so you know it’s looking at you before you see it.
  4. Different idea, make the mines like they used to be. You walk on the mine and it makes an initial triggered sound. If you stop moving, you’re safe. If you move off the mine you die. An engineer can come and disarm the mine if you don’t move. If you jump off the mine to try and take minimal damage you should still die.
(SockDog) #6

MMm

You can set only two mines I believe after that the UI states the oldest will be removed. Unless you mean only two mines total over the lifespan of the player.

I think the arm delay is fine, as Stealth said you can shoot a mine with quite an effective blast range.

Slightly pedantic point here but I thought everyone was saying you have no time to dance or track people in DB. Yet there is time to have a firefight and drop a mine/turret without dying?

I don’t think there should be a greater delay, you step on a mine you should be hit by the mine otherwise it makes then largely pointless. I do agree they’re a bit overpowered, maybe take them down to 50%-75% health and induce a stunned effect for 5 seconds.

While I like the idea of waiting for an engineer to defuse would this mean mining objective could still be completed by people standing on a mine?

For turrets.

I’d say two heavy knife blows to knock it over.

To shoot it over maybe we can have hitboxes. Shoot a smaller target and it topples, otherwise you need a few more.

Also aren’t newly dropped turrets easier to topple over? I’ve felt it is.

Damage I think is fine and I’m also not sure you should be alerted beyond maybe a more unique turret firing sound and maybe a laser pointer.

I think these sorts of measures should have a valid danger to them and not be incidental annoyances. Yes it detracts from the shooting but in some ways isn’t that also part of the game. They need counters but they shouldn’t be inconsequential if you just ignore them.

(stealth6) #7

[QUOTE=SockDog;411717]
I don’t think there should be a greater delay, you step on a mine you should be hit by the mine otherwise it makes then largely pointless. I do agree they’re a bit overpowered, maybe take them down to 50%-75% health and induce a stunned effect for 5 seconds.[/quote]
Maybe there will be other mines to choose from later, I personally prefer just damage instead of less damage + stun.

[QUOTE=SockDog;411717]
While I like the idea of waiting for an engineer to defuse would this mean mining objective could still be completed by people standing on a mine?[/quote]

Yes, but then you’re a sitting duck. If you move you die and if they start shooting you you might get knocked off the mine due to recoil or move off it yourself to evade fire, in both cases you’re dead.

This, by lowering damage it’s making them inconsequential imo.

(Humate) #8

I don’t think there should be a greater delay, you step on a mine you should be hit by the mine otherwise it makes then largely pointless.

They give enough warning with their beeping sounds, plus you can see them.
The problem is they dont indicate if they are friendly, well at least to my knowledge.

(SockDog) #9

I’m hoping there are. Flame mines are on my Christmas list. Was just saying as I feel a little cheap getting kills by planting around objectives. I mean, it certainly means I’m doing my job but it is kind of plant and forget sort of stuff. Maybe the nearly kill (although the 50% regen really limits the nearly part) and a stun would offer a way to slow down an attack to them be picked off rather than just dying.

I feel good there will be more mines and turret types though. Flamethrower turret FTW (Flame The Wimps)

Yes, but then you’re a sitting duck. If you move you die and if they start shooting you you might get knocked off the mine due to recoil or move off it yourself to evade fire, in both cases you’re dead.

But for me a mine, right now, is either a pre or post gun battle type thing. If I die at the terminal in Waterloo I can hope they sit on the mine I put next to it. Likewise for the wall. If they can still achieve the objective while standing on a mine I don’t think they’ll care if they die afterwards, and if they’re doing the objective more often than not they’ll be standing still anyway.

[QUOTE=Humate;411726]They give enough warning with their beeping sounds, plus you can see them.
The problem is they dont indicate if they are friendly, well at least to my knowledge.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I’m either blind (most likely) or I swear they’re not always visible, I just assumed enemy mines couldn’t be seen but only heard, yet I’ve seen people shoot them. Does a CovOps reveal them?. Bah, Probably me filtering it out. I know friendly ones I put down have a light on them, don’t know if the rest of the team sees that?

(Humate) #10

Yes ive seen enemy engies lay mines, and Ive detonated them after i killed them.
Also have walked over a visible mine, thinking it was friendly and it killed me.
Perhaps these were bugs.

(H0RSE) #11

I don’t think turrets need to do less damage - just have a lengthy cooldown and/or a limit to 1 per engy. Lowering the damage or increasing their hitbox, just goes to make them all that more ineffective. Sometimes having things unbalanced in a game, is a good way to balance the game. A good example of this are the heavy weapons in Brink. Prior to seeing them in action, everyone was concerned that they would be OP, and then when we finally got to use them, we found that not only were they not OP, they were a bit on the nerfed side. The higher health/heavy weapon bonus of Heavies, just didn’t compete with the speed and mobility of Lights, and it showed when you played more competitive games, where teams would be consisted entirely of Light builds.

The heavy weapons should have been OP’s - they should have been designed to strike fear in your eyes if you came face to face with one. This “unbalanced” approach, would have helped balance the pros/cons of choosing Heavy over Light. Perhaps this is how the turrets should behave - perhaps they should be deadly, since trying to “balance” their damage could ultimately just nerf them. Look at the turret in TF2 - fully upgraded, that thing is a beast, and pretty much means instant death if you run out ion front of one, yet overall, they feel balanced, and there are ways to counter them. Maybe give them low health, or introduce counters (which SD very well could be doing now) like emp nades. Also, removing the “slowdown when shot” mechanic, would help balance them out as well.

As for mines - I was a fan of how they operated in W:ET. Marked for teammates, invisible to enemies, spottable by covies, and hiss when you step on them, giving an engineer a chance to disarm and avoid damage/death. Now I haven’t played W:ET in a long time, but iirc, you were also able to destroy mines, even if you couldn’t see them. I remember this happening on the last obj on Oasis, when they block the back entrance to the cannons with a minefield - throwing a grenade would clear them out. I liked that mechanic.

(stealth6) #12

You had to spot them before you could blow them up. No blowing up invisible mines.

(H0RSE) #13

Well, in that case, I don’t see a problem with allowing payers the ability to do so. The mine is there whether it’s spotted or not, so you should be able to destroy it - but only with explosives.

(DarkangelUK) #14

I think that comes under the ‘grenade sponge syndrome’ that plagued ETQW, your nades were spent on turrets, mines, vehicles and using them combat quite often came secondary. Now granted DB doesn’t have these, but the likes of the medic only gets 1 grenade and I really like using it to blow people up. I quite like the option to shoot them, but like you I also liked how the worked in ET where they were hidden etc.

(tokamak) #15

Turrets should have much more hp and much lower damage output. That way they become a means of area control rather than the lethal ambush trap they’re now. Turrets need to be a road bump, something that slows players down and makes them rethink their approach. Right now it’s something you build to get a few surprise kills with until the team learns and easily disposes of it.

If a turret was more robust but wasn’t good at killing players then it would turn into an obstacle players would have to work harder at getting rid of but at least it would give them a chance to at least be aware of the turret’s existence before dying to it. This way it would complement the engineer better, if would be around to add the lethal dose of bullets to the turret’s less-lethal constant stream of bullets.

(stealth6) #16

[QUOTE=tokamak;411802]Turrets should have much more hp and much lower damage output. That way they become a means of area control rather than the lethal ambush trap they’re now. Turrets need to be a road bump, something that slows players down and makes them rethink their approach. Right now it’s something you build to get a few surprise kills with until the team learns and easily disposes of it.

If a turret was more robust but wasn’t good at killing players then it would turn into an obstacle players would have to work harder at getting rid of but at least it would give them a chance to at least be aware of the turret’s existence before dying to it. This way it would complement the engineer better, if would be around to add the lethal dose of bullets to the turret’s less-lethal constant stream of bullets.[/QUOTE]

What is even the point in having one then? If it can’t kill anybody then it’s not going to do much area control if the enemy can just roll right over it…

(H0RSE) #17

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;411798]I think that comes under the ‘grenade sponge syndrome’ that plagued ETQW, your nades were spent on turrets, mines, vehicles and using them combat quite often came secondary. Now granted DB doesn’t have these, but the likes of the medic only gets 1 grenade and I really like using it to blow people up. I quite like the option to shoot them, but like you I also liked how the worked in ET where they were hidden etc.[/QUOTE]I see what your saying, by turning the grenade into more of a utility device rather than a weapon, but in the same regard, players still have the option to use them on what they want. You like using your nades to blow people up? Then do just that.

That’s what I was thinking. They can’t offer very good area control, if their damage output is negligible. The damage output has to be enough to deter players from even walking in front of them. or they could have low damage, with the option to build a lot of them.

(tokamak) #18

As of this moment you die before you realise the turret is even there. If you know the turret is there however it is easy to dispose of. That means the turret is a booby trap rather than something that gives a player more area control. The booby trap is the niche of the mine already so to pull the function of both weapons further apart the turrets needs to focus on lasting control.

The damage shouldn’t be negligible it just needs to be low enough that it doesn’t kill players that treat in it’s line of sight straight away, it still needs to do enough damage that it repels players.

In return the turret should be sturdy enough that it can last against stronger attacks, especially with an engineer defending it. That’s the proper way to lock down an area. It also means that the defense can by thrown simply attacking with multiple players at the same time (and thus enhancing the value of team communication).

And the turret warning needs to return (with different options exactly like in ETQW). If only for the psychological value added to the crowd control function it needs to have. Same for drone strikes.

And so what if it is a grenade sponge? A grenade sponge is a perfectly valid function. The problem in ETQW was that there were simply too many of them. To fix ETQW’s flaw you could simply make all deployables except for the APT more sensitive to grenade damage so that players wouldn’t need to waste as much on disabling/destroying them.

(DarkangelUK) #19

Oh yeah I completely understand that, but I think when it comes to the grand scheme of things for the team, clearing mines for the engi to plant, or making a back route safe for all to travel through instead of having to take the long way round takes precedence over my desire to give someone a nade sammich, and me being the standup guy that I am will do just that. Personally I disliked having to use my nades as a tool in ETQW and I like having them to kill with in DB, since I’ve tried both then I think I’m the happiest with this option.

(H0RSE) #20

Well, you could also use an airstrike to clear mines :slight_smile: